What should I check for when shopping for a 997?
06-01-2018, 01:14 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
What should I check for when shopping for a 997?
I was looking at a new Cayenne or Macan, but decided that my 06 Cayenne Turbo (90K mi.) is in great condition and a ball to drive, so why trade? I've shifted to looking for a '06 or later 996 or 997 and keeping the 955 as the kayak/bike/ski/mutt hauler. Looking for a cabriolet w/tip, under 50K miles, price range is $40K +/-. I'd really appreciate advice on the common issues to look out for on 997s. I believe the IMS curse was cleared by 06...right? Any negatives on a Carrera 4 AWD? . Also looking for a Porsche indie tech in Bend OR. Thanks (cross-posted in 996 Forum)
06-01-2018, 02:40 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Bore scoring on 997.1.
and check out this helpful thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...rera-tips.html
and check out this helpful thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...rera-tips.html
06-01-2018, 02:42 PM
#4
Three Wheelin'
@DWPC - welcome!
First as a 997.1 owner let me clarify the comment from my esteemed 997.2 colleague re "bore scoring on the 997.1". We just had a spirited discussion on generalizations like this over here: https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...997-1-a-3.html. I could also write "watch out for catastrophic PDK failures on the 997.2"...but that doesn't help either.
The 997.1 is an excellent car and likely the best value sports car in the world right now. After putting 20k miles on mine the only regret I have is not buying one sooner. That being said its a ~12yr old car so there are maintenance issues you need to be aware of. And there are also design weaknesses you should fully understand so generalizations dont skew your understanding either way.
Here is what you need to know about the 997.1:
What are the typical wear and tear items?
1. Coolant tank - Both 997.1 and 997.2 can have the coolant expansion tank get brittle and crack. You want to make sure you inspect it regularly. I just replaced mine as a DIY job. At a dealer it would cost you $2-3K, at an indy maybe $500-1k, or DIY it for $120 in parts and 5hrs.
2. Water pump - You will want to replace the water pump if it hasn't already been done.
3. RMS - The RMS can leak in some cars so check for leaks during the PPI. Even if it does its a minor issue and a $20 part than can be replaced when servicing the clutch. This was solved in MY2007 cars I believe.
4. Alternator/Starter cable - Some 997.1's have an issue with the alternator+starter cable corroding leading the starter to turn over slowly when the engine is hot. You can check for that during the PPI by testing the voltage drop between the alternator and battery. If more than .5 you need to replace the cable. Its an $80 part but installation is a pain. I also just replaced mine as a DIY job. My indy was going to charge around $600 and the local dealer quoted $3-4k.
5. Soft touch paint - The soft touch paint on the AC ***** and center console paint can get chewed up. Both easy fixes. MACarbon has excellent replacements for around $150.
6. Clutch life - much debated. A bunch of guys on here getting 80-100k miles on their clutch. Others at 50k. Depends on city driving vs highway. Clutch job will run you $1700-$3000 at an Indy, depending on if they need to replace the flywheel ($1k). At 50k miles you likely dont.
7. Air-oil separator (AOS) - another wear and tear item that will likely need to be replaced if it hasn't already. Not an expensive part.
8. IMS - the much discussed boogeyman in 996's and 997.1's. It was a material risk for 996s and 2005 model year 997s. However 2006 and above model year 997.1s (and some 2005 model years, but not all) have an upgraded "large bearing" IMS and failures are extremely rare. How rare? Well you have a better chance of getting brain cancer. There are only 3 2006+ cars the forum knows of that have a reported IMS failure. 2 of those were on the track at the time of failure.
9. Bore Scoring - there is a very small percent of cold weather cars that can get scored bores from improper warm up and/or bad winter gas. We dont know exactly what the exact percent is but as a reference point there are 40 cars that have reported it on this forum vs over 100k made (take that for what its worth). 997.2s have this potential too but there are fewer reported, likely because of an improved cylinder coating. The symptoms include high oil consumption, the left exhaust tip being more stained than the right, and eventually when it gets bad enough you hear the engine "ticking" loudly as the piston slaps against the cylinder. In the 997.1 it can take 40k miles for symptoms to develop to the point where the car is undrivable. Whereas in the 997.2 the experts say it leads to engine seizure. So, in conclusion: if the car has come from cold climates I would pay extra to scope the bores. As a point of reference my indy said in 15+ years working on 911s, including one of the busiest dealerships in the Bay Area, he's never once seen a 997 with scored bores in California. However has seen tons of engines damaged by rats and 4-5 with cracked cylinders.
What are recommendations for the PPI?
1. Get a proper PPI from a reputable shop.
2. Spend an extra $100-200 to have them scope the bores. Check where the car lived. If cold climates, be more thorough.
3. Have them pull the oil filter and inspect for any debris. Yes, they can do it on an 997.1. You will only loose a little oil and they can top off after.
4. Check the tire age. Even if they look good they start to dry rot and get rock hard as they age.
5. Inquire about oil usage and what brand the prior owner used.
6. Check for any smoke on a cold start. In some cases its normal. If regular its not. Check for any noticeable ticking or knocking noises.
7. Take if for a test drive and get the oil temp over 210. Then turn the car off an immediately restart it to see how it cranks. It should turn over strong. If its lazy or slow you have a bad cable.
8. Check the alternator output and any drop-off on the battery side.
9. Im sure the prior owner has all the maintenance records. Post them here if any questions.
Should you get an aftermarket warranty?
If you are a) risk adverse and b) not a DIY guy it likely makes sense to spend $3-4k for a Fidelity warranty. These are 10+ year old cars. Stuff breaks so you can sleep well knowing you can get white glove service at your local dealer. If you are a DIY guy you can do most maintenance yourself for little money.
Some things to know about the Tiptronic transmission:
Lastly, re your preference of a Cab+Tip. Cabs will trade about 10-15% lower than coupes and the 997.1 Tiptronic transmission isn't generally much loved. You will typically find them trading for an additional 10-15% discount vs manuals. Ive never driven one so cant comment. My understanding is they shift a bit slow affecting performance. If you dont care then you have a great car for 20% less. If you do care, get a manual 997.1, or a 997.2 PDK. Its a work of art. However, full disclosure, there is a risk of failure with PDKs that requires a complete replacement. You cant "fix" a PDK if it goes bad. My understanding is Porsche requires complete replacement at a cost of $14k+.
Good luck! and keep us posted. You will love the 997 no matter what one you get.
First as a 997.1 owner let me clarify the comment from my esteemed 997.2 colleague re "bore scoring on the 997.1". We just had a spirited discussion on generalizations like this over here: https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...997-1-a-3.html. I could also write "watch out for catastrophic PDK failures on the 997.2"...but that doesn't help either.
The 997.1 is an excellent car and likely the best value sports car in the world right now. After putting 20k miles on mine the only regret I have is not buying one sooner. That being said its a ~12yr old car so there are maintenance issues you need to be aware of. And there are also design weaknesses you should fully understand so generalizations dont skew your understanding either way.
Here is what you need to know about the 997.1:
What are the typical wear and tear items?
1. Coolant tank - Both 997.1 and 997.2 can have the coolant expansion tank get brittle and crack. You want to make sure you inspect it regularly. I just replaced mine as a DIY job. At a dealer it would cost you $2-3K, at an indy maybe $500-1k, or DIY it for $120 in parts and 5hrs.
2. Water pump - You will want to replace the water pump if it hasn't already been done.
3. RMS - The RMS can leak in some cars so check for leaks during the PPI. Even if it does its a minor issue and a $20 part than can be replaced when servicing the clutch. This was solved in MY2007 cars I believe.
4. Alternator/Starter cable - Some 997.1's have an issue with the alternator+starter cable corroding leading the starter to turn over slowly when the engine is hot. You can check for that during the PPI by testing the voltage drop between the alternator and battery. If more than .5 you need to replace the cable. Its an $80 part but installation is a pain. I also just replaced mine as a DIY job. My indy was going to charge around $600 and the local dealer quoted $3-4k.
5. Soft touch paint - The soft touch paint on the AC ***** and center console paint can get chewed up. Both easy fixes. MACarbon has excellent replacements for around $150.
6. Clutch life - much debated. A bunch of guys on here getting 80-100k miles on their clutch. Others at 50k. Depends on city driving vs highway. Clutch job will run you $1700-$3000 at an Indy, depending on if they need to replace the flywheel ($1k). At 50k miles you likely dont.
7. Air-oil separator (AOS) - another wear and tear item that will likely need to be replaced if it hasn't already. Not an expensive part.
8. IMS - the much discussed boogeyman in 996's and 997.1's. It was a material risk for 996s and 2005 model year 997s. However 2006 and above model year 997.1s (and some 2005 model years, but not all) have an upgraded "large bearing" IMS and failures are extremely rare. How rare? Well you have a better chance of getting brain cancer. There are only 3 2006+ cars the forum knows of that have a reported IMS failure. 2 of those were on the track at the time of failure.
9. Bore Scoring - there is a very small percent of cold weather cars that can get scored bores from improper warm up and/or bad winter gas. We dont know exactly what the exact percent is but as a reference point there are 40 cars that have reported it on this forum vs over 100k made (take that for what its worth). 997.2s have this potential too but there are fewer reported, likely because of an improved cylinder coating. The symptoms include high oil consumption, the left exhaust tip being more stained than the right, and eventually when it gets bad enough you hear the engine "ticking" loudly as the piston slaps against the cylinder. In the 997.1 it can take 40k miles for symptoms to develop to the point where the car is undrivable. Whereas in the 997.2 the experts say it leads to engine seizure. So, in conclusion: if the car has come from cold climates I would pay extra to scope the bores. As a point of reference my indy said in 15+ years working on 911s, including one of the busiest dealerships in the Bay Area, he's never once seen a 997 with scored bores in California. However has seen tons of engines damaged by rats and 4-5 with cracked cylinders.
What are recommendations for the PPI?
1. Get a proper PPI from a reputable shop.
2. Spend an extra $100-200 to have them scope the bores. Check where the car lived. If cold climates, be more thorough.
3. Have them pull the oil filter and inspect for any debris. Yes, they can do it on an 997.1. You will only loose a little oil and they can top off after.
4. Check the tire age. Even if they look good they start to dry rot and get rock hard as they age.
5. Inquire about oil usage and what brand the prior owner used.
6. Check for any smoke on a cold start. In some cases its normal. If regular its not. Check for any noticeable ticking or knocking noises.
7. Take if for a test drive and get the oil temp over 210. Then turn the car off an immediately restart it to see how it cranks. It should turn over strong. If its lazy or slow you have a bad cable.
8. Check the alternator output and any drop-off on the battery side.
9. Im sure the prior owner has all the maintenance records. Post them here if any questions.
Should you get an aftermarket warranty?
If you are a) risk adverse and b) not a DIY guy it likely makes sense to spend $3-4k for a Fidelity warranty. These are 10+ year old cars. Stuff breaks so you can sleep well knowing you can get white glove service at your local dealer. If you are a DIY guy you can do most maintenance yourself for little money.
Some things to know about the Tiptronic transmission:
Lastly, re your preference of a Cab+Tip. Cabs will trade about 10-15% lower than coupes and the 997.1 Tiptronic transmission isn't generally much loved. You will typically find them trading for an additional 10-15% discount vs manuals. Ive never driven one so cant comment. My understanding is they shift a bit slow affecting performance. If you dont care then you have a great car for 20% less. If you do care, get a manual 997.1, or a 997.2 PDK. Its a work of art. However, full disclosure, there is a risk of failure with PDKs that requires a complete replacement. You cant "fix" a PDK if it goes bad. My understanding is Porsche requires complete replacement at a cost of $14k+.
Good luck! and keep us posted. You will love the 997 no matter what one you get.
06-01-2018, 04:09 PM
#5
I was looking at a new Cayenne or Macan, but decided that my 06 Cayenne Turbo (90K mi.) is in great condition and a ball to drive, so why trade? I've shifted to looking for a '06 or later 996 or 997 and keeping the 955 as the kayak/bike/ski/mutt hauler. Looking for a cabriolet w/tip, under 50K miles, price range is $40K +/-. I'd really appreciate advice on the common issues to look out for on 997s. I believe the IMS curse was cleared by 06...right? Any negatives on a Carrera 4 AWD? . Also looking for a Porsche indie tech in Bend OR. Thanks (cross-posted in 996 Forum)
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06-22-2018, 12:57 PM
#9
Three Wheelin'
There are a number of possible scenarios where that may not be the case. Clutch problems from a Manual, PDK problems, bore scoring or IMS problems.
Seems like sticking with a 9a1 engine (from 997.2) will reduce the chances of failure/problems down to issues associated with the gearbox. Plenty of problems with manual and pdk gearboxes have been reported. Simply go through the first 2 pages on this forum and you'll easily be able to keep a count on which 997 gearbox has more rennlist-reported problems
There have been reports of both manual and PDK transmissions requiring a replacement. Recent posts bear that out. If you need to have bores scoped before buying a car you are not buying the correct car.