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Porsche like BMW? Bob Lutz on BMW.....

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Old 02-14-2018, 12:58 AM
  #16
swingwing
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And then there was this one...2002 E39 M5. I owned this one for three years before moving to my first Porsche a couple of months ago, an '09 997.2 Carrera. This was an amazing car. I turned around and looked at it every time after parking it. In my opinion this is the finest BMW ever made. Your experience may differ.

Last edited by swingwing; 02-14-2018 at 01:01 AM. Reason: Added sentence.
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:30 AM
  #17
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Originally Posted by jll1011 View Post
After owning many BMW's over the years, I have lost interest in owning one again. Every time I go to buy a new car, I do test drive the "competing" model for BMW. Personally, I think they are overpriced and lack quality. Just traded in a BMW X3 that was a nightmare. Bought new and was in the shop regularly. In my view, BMW has lost its bearings by compromising quality in order to have dozens of models. Why do they need an X1, X2, X3, X4, X5 & X6??? Really? We will have to watch Porsche in what they do. I just don't think adding new models on a regular basis improves quality or is necessarily good for the consumer.
Isn't Porsche doing that already? I think they offer 7 variants of the Panamera and 5 of the Cayenne. I pick those two as examples since one is a luxury cruiser and the other an SUV. Of all category buyers I would guess those two may care less than any others about that many different choices and options. A base and an S of each would probably be just fine as long as they can pick and choose from the options list. Whole different story on the sports car line where buyers have much more specific wants and needs.
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Old 02-14-2018, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by swingwing View Post
And then there was this one...2002 E39 M5. I owned this one for three years before moving to my first Porsche a couple of months ago, an '09 997.2 Carrera. This was an amazing car. I turned around and looked at it every time after parking it. In my opinion this is the finest BMW ever made. Your experience may differ.
I had that bodystyle in a '97 528i, it was a very nice car. Tons better than the prior style 5-series in which I sat upright like driving a bus, and had a bus-like clutch. I also had a '92 325i which was a blast to drive. I should have stuck with 3 or 5 series, but I went for a 7 in '99 and it was a nightmare. Broke down every other day, and plus it was an automatic so lacked the fun factor entirely. The next 7-series bodystyle looked to me like a cockroach with wheels, so I went over to MB and never returned.
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:48 PM
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My first BMW was a1976 2002 manual.There followed 6 more of which the best IMO were the 1998 528i and 2001 530i, both E39's, the best cars of their time.
The last was a 2007 335i that I never could bond with and got rid of after a mere 4 months for a...2005 996 C4S.
Never looked back. Now on 2nd Pcar '09 997.
Have tried the newest BMW's, found them lacking except for M cars.
BMW's have become mere transportation. No longer for me.
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Old 02-15-2018, 02:15 AM
  #20
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Had two of these. Loved both of them but moved to my first 997 from the 2002. Haven't driven a BMW since that would tempt me to go back in that direction. I'll say this though, driving the -06 C4S home after the purchase I was underwhelmed with the acceleration compared to the M3. Haven't looked at the official numbers but I bet they're pretty close on the 0-60 run.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:01 AM
  #21
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I had a new 2008 BMW 535 with 6 MT and standard suspension ( with NO RUNFLATS). Upon delivery I had to complain about the substandard paint job. It was really bad. Hyundai would have been embarrassed. Normally I would have rejected the car but it was a company car ordered for me by my employer.

Initially, driving the car was enjoyable as the twin turbochargers corrected the severe shortage of torque at low and mid rpms. The engine sounded great also. However, the chronic problems with the fuel pump, the injectors, the failed turbos and waste gates, failed vanos solenoids and other issues meant that I was often driving loaner 3 series with run-flats ( horrible). The manual trans was generally smooth with the exception of second gear ( very balky) and the clutch was the most difficult to engage smoothly ( I have driven several dozens of MT cars over the years from different manufacturers and this one was the worst by far. Yes, the car was ugly ( Bangled) but it was still lightweight compared to its porky successor in the BMW lineup. No more BMWs for me. I have found that the Audi A6 is a better car in so many ways.

Porsche had to move to SUVs to survive. The sports car business over the years ( decades) has been very much up and down. As Porsche is now part of the VW group, their future is more secure. But, as with BMW, more and more people are buying ( more accurately, leasing) the products because of the brand, not the car. This is a much more profitable marketing approach. I love my 997. It is a great blend of what's old and new about sports cars.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:11 PM
  #22
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After driving a 991 C2S manual for the past couple of days, I can say that a 991 is still a pinnacle of sports car performance and feel. Sure, it isn't as involving as a 981 platform, but it is a different level from an M-car. I loved my E92, but there is really no comparison between handling, suspension, the overall weight of the car, and road feel. I know the 991 is bigger than the 997, which is huge compared to a 993, but they are all great, albeit evolving, sports cars. Sure, pump out the soccer-mom SUV models and Panamera cruisers, but can anyone really track ANY model of 991 and say it isn't a true sports car? A track day on the most basic PDK 991 is going to be a fun day. Perhaps the current models get a bad rap because they don't feel as raw, but that may have a lot to do with the overall capability of the cars these days. A public road isn't going to come close to being exciting in any modern Porsche, and therefore, where most people drive them, the cars can feel dull. An older-school 993 or E46 M3 is going to be more exciting, period, but at the track, a current gen F82 M3 is not going to suck either: it just feels like a muscle car at speed instead of the playful scalpel that the E46 was. They both weigh in at around 3500 lbs, so we are not talking about car weight; we are talking about the overall capability of the car somewhat neutering the daily driving fun factor.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:36 PM
  #23
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Porsche is definitely heading down the BMW road of chasing sales numbers and profits instead of building ultimate driving machines and sports cars. I guess from a business perspective you can't blame them as catering to internet car enthusiasts isn't exactly profitable.

But personally I'm not fond of how "comfortable" Porsche's are becoming.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Crester View Post
Porsche is definitely heading down the BMW road of chasing sales numbers and profits instead of building ultimate driving machines and sports cars. I guess from a business perspective you can't blame them as catering to internet car enthusiasts isn't exactly profitable.

But personally I'm not fond of how "comfortable" Porsche's are becoming.
This is so similar to what i used to read on the Bimmerforums. We all complained about how the newest Z4 had gotten heavy and lost its raw driving feel. Most were being shipped with automatics. It was one of the reasons i kept my 2005 BMW Z4 3.0 MT for so long. I had it over 7 years which was a very long time for car ownership for me. That car was fantastic fun to drive. The only reason i got rid of it was to get the 997 (just a month or so ago). Otherwise, i would have kept driving it.

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Old 02-16-2018, 10:09 AM
  #25
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fwiw, I will likely be selling my 7tt to get into 2003 540i sport 6 speed in the next year or so. I prefer the BMWs from the e46/e38/e39 era to the new stuff, but then again I hate all new cars.
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