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Porsche like BMW? Bob Lutz on BMW.....

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Old 02-13-2018, 11:46 AM
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Bruce In Philly
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Default Porsche like BMW? Bob Lutz on BMW.....

From July 2016

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...bob-lutz-july/

"BMW Doesn't Design Every Car for Enthusiasts and That's a Good Thing Former BMW exec Bob Lutz thinks the transformation of the BMW brand may be a negative for fans, but a positive for its bottom line." " Most BMW buyers today pay a monthly lease and have no idea why they bought the brand, other than that it enjoys instant recognition and respect among the owner's peers. " Hmmm.... sounds a bit Porsche-ish no?

I love reading this guy's stuff. So is Porsche leaving the true sports car market? As I always said, enthusiasts make the brand, posers make the money.

Peace
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Old 02-13-2018, 12:40 PM
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Tcc1999
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Hey again Bruce, Good thought question, I’m no fan of BMW but they still engineer a few pretty formidable M cars, and Porsche has the GT3/2 models to Maintain their sports car credibility. I think that the problem is that consumer and grand touring association (and the concordant multitude of variants) may drag down the sports car/enthusiast brand/models a bit - but Porsche, using price, seems to still maintain a sports car perception. So, you see a hundred BMWs on any given day and the M4 doesn’t draw any attention. And while Porsches are less common, most people would not even notice a GT3 (and maybe now even more so with the luxury package option). So, I don’t think either BMW or Porsche has left the sports car market, they just have chosen not to spin off their sporting brands (prefering price and an M or GT designation to denote the differences). The high end sports cars still perform, maybe it is thebpeople who buy them just want status. I think we should pin all this dilution of VW!
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Old 02-13-2018, 12:44 PM
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Steve 911
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I am a huge BMW fan that has little interest in most of their current product offerings. I'm also the type of person that prefers to buy depreciated examples of what they have to offer. While I don't like their current offerings, I'm not sure they really care what I think because I'm not the one in the showroom buying new ones
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:09 PM
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If there was no Porsche then I would be driving a M2 or M4.

Well, the new mid-engine vette teases me a lot. I know, I know!
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:54 PM
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More like "soccer moms make the money"
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Old 02-13-2018, 02:51 PM
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ADias
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Originally Posted by Bruce In Philly View Post
From July 2016
....So is Porsche leaving the true sports car market? As I always said, enthusiasts make the brand, posers make the money.
Of course they are. The 991 was the first model towards that - comfier, easier to drive, and so on. Same with the 991 GT3.
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ADias View Post
Of course they are. The 991 was the first model towards that - comfier, easier to drive, and so on. Same with the 991 GT3.
I bet if you entered this into the search box each of the previous gen's forums (maybe not 996) you'll get a result just replacing 991 with <subsequent gen>
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by cosm3os View Post
I bet if you entered this into the search box each of the previous gen's forums (maybe not 996) you'll get a result just replacing 991 with <subsequent gen>
Everything 996-onward fits into that category
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:50 PM
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My college roommate in 1974 had a BMW (a '67 1600) and nobody included me, a lifelong gearhead, had ever heard of the brand let alone regarded it as a performance icon. Six years later the brand was an icon...of Yuppie consumerism. It has always been the "poseurs" who funded them, at least in the US. Porsche too, frankly. I'll proudly wear that monnicker driving a Porsche. BMW not so much. I owned 6 of them before finally throwing my hands up in disgust with their unreliability.
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by cosm3os View Post
I bet if you entered this into the search box each of the previous gen's forums (maybe not 996) you'll get a result just replacing 991 with <subsequent gen>
yup, always....and that includes the 996 guys, who think the 997 is bloated, lazy, cushy, and a full on grand tourer.
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:12 PM
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Awesome quote from Lutz.

I think Porsche has started it's departure slowly with the 991 series. It's built more for the masses with it's creature comforts and increased proportions. A couple years back I test drove a 991.2 S and 991.1 GT3 and then went home in mine. Obviously GT3, complete different level and was amazing. The .2 S was fast! But didn't offer me the same connected sporty feeling as my 997.2. End of the day there are more average->sporting customers than there are enthusiasts, to grow you need the first group.

I haven't driven a BMW product in two years, it was the 530d. or 525d....whichever. Selected my A6 TDI. From what I read it seems the M cars of today don't have the same rawness that they once did. BMW also seems to have a car for everybody which the various models available which to me dilutes the value proposition in some aspects. I loved my 2002 325ci, felt like a solid machine built from one block. I'm not sure BMW is in my cards for the foreseeable future.

Should we also discuss Mercedes and AMG, isn't everything an AMG, actual or appearance package? Do those buyers know the lineage and what a real AMG car is like? (speaking about the folks that get the bolt on AMG packages vs specific AMG vehicle).
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Old 02-13-2018, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cosm3os View Post
I bet if you entered this into the search box each of the previous gen's forums (maybe not 996) you'll get a result just replacing 991 with <subsequent gen>
One must have no seat-of-the-pants feel to avoid noticing the significant difference the 991 represents. And of course, Bob Lutz must be wrong in his quote above too... Go drive a 997 and a 991 back to back on some curvy roads and see for yourself.

Now... the 991 is actually the 'better' car, and that is OK if that's what you are after.
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:09 PM
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After owning many BMW's over the years, I have lost interest in owning one again. Every time I go to buy a new car, I do test drive the "competing" model for BMW. Personally, I think they are overpriced and lack quality. Just traded in a BMW X3 that was a nightmare. Bought new and was in the shop regularly. In my view, BMW has lost its bearings by compromising quality in order to have dozens of models. Why do they need an X1, X2, X3, X4, X5 & X6??? Really? We will have to watch Porsche in what they do. I just don't think adding new models on a regular basis improves quality or is necessarily good for the consumer.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:07 PM
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One could make a strong argument that Porsche started to stop being "Porsche" when it strayed from it's original and unique air-cooled engine platform to start making water pumpers like everyone else, and completely finished being Porsche when it became just another corporate division of VW.

Porsches in 2018 have far more in common with modern BMWs, Audis, Merc etc. than they do with Porsches from the classic air-cooled era.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:29 PM
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Some parts of the world, Porsche is known as a Luxury SUV maker who, surprisingly, also sells sports cars on the side.

I'm sure it helps the bottom line. I have a non-enthusiast friend who owned a Cayenne S, and she genuinely thought that ownership experience translates to 911. When the time came to replace it, she was appalled at the abysmal resale value*. She had owned and experienced a Porsche, she thought, no need to buy another one.

She avoided Porsche for her next purchase, and she will never know the sublime driving experiences of Porsche sports cars. Ironically, her next car is a BMW.

(*Although high depreciation is common on luxury vehicles and isn't particular to Cayenne, many of us would swallow it for cars we love. Cayenne didn't do it for my friend, and as a result she never had a loyal attachment to the brand)
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