Deep Thoughts on the 997(.1) bore scoring problem, and your dream rebuild
12-02-2017, 09:21 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
edit, wrong thread
Last edited by mikes70; 12-02-2017 at 09:22 PM. Reason: oops
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Arctic997 (02-14-2020)
12-03-2017, 06:54 PM
#19
Three Wheelin'
Speaking of Walker, he's the one that made long hoods unobtanium. Those were cheap before he came along. Then SCs were supposed to be no good, now those rose with the tide as well. Then you had the 964. Those were panned for leaks, rust and poor reliability. Post Singer those are now also unobtainium. He originally planned to use the G body 911 but I suspect the 964s were cheaper at the time. He spotted value. 993s were the much needed refresh for the bad rep the 964 gained...but then those gained their own bad rep for requiring a top end rebuild at 50k miles, at a cost of $10k. 993s are now unobtanium.
See the trend? All Porsche models seem to go through a trough of despair. Thats where the 997.1 is. Thats why I think its a hell of a value.
12-04-2017, 12:43 AM
#20
Sometimes I wonder why we love this car so much? Apparently every generation is plaque with a disease and yet we praise this car so much. Is there any cars out there that is more trouble free with a heritage background with similar performance and price?
12-04-2017, 12:06 PM
#21
Why do you think this car is "plagued" by disease? Because there is a 2% chance of an IMS failure? Go buy a Ferrari and tell me what that cost of ownership looks like. Seriously, it's a relatively reliable car for a high end sports car.
12-04-2017, 12:46 PM
#22
Race Car
Exactly. I have an E90 3series BMW that costs me almost exactly 4 times as much to maintain as my 997 on a yearly basis. And it not because it’s my 18 Yo son’s daily driver.
12-04-2017, 01:52 PM
#23
I had the same car with the same experience. It was a regular occurrence to blow an ignition coil, electric problems, and unscheduled service visits. When a tree fell on the car and totaled it, I was actually relieved. (no one was injured)
12-04-2017, 03:32 PM
#24
Don't get me wrong I still want a Porsche, maybe I should save up for the 997.2 as they seem to be the bulletproof of the 911's.
12-04-2017, 04:33 PM
#25
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My 997.1S was a bore score victim. I bought the car as a roller and had FSI build a motor. If you can handle the wait time you won't be disappointed.
12-04-2017, 05:30 PM
#26
Step one. Buy the damn car already and make sure you can obtain the service records. Step two is drive the F out of it.
03-16-2019, 06:11 PM
#27
Enjoying my 997.1 but am a bit worried about rebuild cost due to bore score. No sign or symptoms now and clean PPI (6 months ago).
I looked at fidelity warranty but the platinum is outrageously expensive (almost the same cost as an engine rebuild). However, the powertrain level is more reasonable. It says it covers “all lubricated parts” including cylinder and pistons and considers mechanical breakdown due to wear as covered. Good enough? It’s either that or self insure.
I looked at fidelity warranty but the platinum is outrageously expensive (almost the same cost as an engine rebuild). However, the powertrain level is more reasonable. It says it covers “all lubricated parts” including cylinder and pistons and considers mechanical breakdown due to wear as covered. Good enough? It’s either that or self insure.
03-16-2019, 06:47 PM
#28
Racer
Enjoying my 997.1 but am a bit worried about rebuild cost due to bore score. No sign or symptoms now and clean PPI (6 months ago).
I looked at fidelity warranty but the platinum is outrageously expensive (almost the same cost as an engine rebuild). However, the powertrain level is more reasonable. It says it covers “all lubricated parts” including cylinder and pistons and considers mechanical breakdown due to wear as covered. Good enough? It’s either that or self insure.
I looked at fidelity warranty but the platinum is outrageously expensive (almost the same cost as an engine rebuild). However, the powertrain level is more reasonable. It says it covers “all lubricated parts” including cylinder and pistons and considers mechanical breakdown due to wear as covered. Good enough? It’s either that or self insure.
After about 10,000 to 15,000 miles, I started getting symptoms of bore score, which was confirmed. Yet I drove my car for another 27,000 miles before I felt the symptoms were bad enough to have the engine rebuilt. Had I bought the extended warranty only, I would have still been out all of its cost. Had I extended the warranty a second time, the money spent on both would have paid for half my engine rebuild all by itself.
Aside from having my engine bored out to 4.0 liters and bullet-proofing all known issues, I was also able to replace parts that require future expensive maintenance, such as the clutch, the AOS, the timing chain tensioner and guides -- all for just the price of the parts since the engine had to be completely torn down and rebuilt, anyway. This is like heavily discount prepaid insurance which is much better than dealing with a warranty.
Also, an engine rebuilt with Nickies, a direct oil feed plain IMS bearing, better rod bolts, etc., etc. might command a slight premium -- maybe $1,000 to $2,000. Maybe more. Maybe less. But something just because of the peace of mind factor.
So you add it all up: $8,000 to $10,000 not paid over at least 8 years for extended warranty protection, maybe another $5,000 not spent on known, future maintenance (at full price including labor), and a couple thousand dollar premium for eliminating all known common points of failure, and you have offset most of the cost of the rebuild.
Another issue with extended warranties, particularly from Porsche: You may be required to rebuild using only the original OEM parts and are left with all the old, original worries about bore score and IMS failure.
I guess my approach to extended warranties is to turn them down, but to pay the same rate to myself in the form of savings and investments in case I ever need it for my car. Then if I don't, I am well on my way towards my next car.
All that said, I love my car. There just isn't anything much better than a healthy 997, even 997.1 like mine.
Last edited by JustinCase; 03-16-2019 at 06:53 PM. Reason: Afterthoughts
08-13-2019, 03:08 AM
#29
I would second this. Here is the way I look at it:
You can get a pristine 997.1 for $35-43k with <45k miles, the equivalent of a well equiped 2017 Ford Taurus. Its likely the best value sports car on the planet. A similar spec 997.2 will run you $20k more and take you twice as long to find. Is it a better car? Yes. Is it worth $20k more? It depends on what you're looking for.
According to the Porsche class action suit the probability of an IMS issue on a 2006-2008 997.1 is something like 0.5%. Its extremely rare. There is no true statistical data on the bore scoring issue that I know of. Its real but its not a 15% probability as the poll concludes. Its a garbage poll with a massive sample bias. There are 32 owners who reported it on this forum...32. There were over 100,000 997.1's produced between 2005 and 2008. Its the most commercially successful 911 of all time. If this stat was remotely correct our friend Jake Raby would have made over $300M and sent every one of us a Christmas ham. I didnt get mine.
Jake and Baz from Hartech have some great posts on the topic. The issue is related to the Lokasil 2 piston coating and highly correlated to cold climate cars. Stay away from those and your probability goes down dramatically.
Every model has an issue people dramatize: “all 993s need a top end rebuild”, “all 996s will suffer an IMS failure”, “all 997.1s have scored bores”, etc. We can play the same game with the 997.2. The forum polls show 6 with PDK failures and 2 with scored bores. Thats 8 catastrophic failures vs 32 in the 997.1 However, there are twice as as many 997.1s and they have 5 years more data. I could easily make some dramatic statement about plunging values and impending doom as time goes on.
Earlier I said I think the 997.1 is the best value sports car on the planet. Here's why:
1. Say you're the unlucky one, you did your homework, got a proper PPI, and maintained the car well. Your probability of having a catastrophic engine issue at <100k miles is maybe 2-3%? Bad **** happens to good people. Your options at this point are:
You can get a pristine 997.1 for $35-43k with <45k miles, the equivalent of a well equiped 2017 Ford Taurus. Its likely the best value sports car on the planet. A similar spec 997.2 will run you $20k more and take you twice as long to find. Is it a better car? Yes. Is it worth $20k more? It depends on what you're looking for.
According to the Porsche class action suit the probability of an IMS issue on a 2006-2008 997.1 is something like 0.5%. Its extremely rare. There is no true statistical data on the bore scoring issue that I know of. Its real but its not a 15% probability as the poll concludes. Its a garbage poll with a massive sample bias. There are 32 owners who reported it on this forum...32. There were over 100,000 997.1's produced between 2005 and 2008. Its the most commercially successful 911 of all time. If this stat was remotely correct our friend Jake Raby would have made over $300M and sent every one of us a Christmas ham. I didnt get mine.
Jake and Baz from Hartech have some great posts on the topic. The issue is related to the Lokasil 2 piston coating and highly correlated to cold climate cars. Stay away from those and your probability goes down dramatically.
Every model has an issue people dramatize: “all 993s need a top end rebuild”, “all 996s will suffer an IMS failure”, “all 997.1s have scored bores”, etc. We can play the same game with the 997.2. The forum polls show 6 with PDK failures and 2 with scored bores. Thats 8 catastrophic failures vs 32 in the 997.1 However, there are twice as as many 997.1s and they have 5 years more data. I could easily make some dramatic statement about plunging values and impending doom as time goes on.
Earlier I said I think the 997.1 is the best value sports car on the planet. Here's why:
1. Say you're the unlucky one, you did your homework, got a proper PPI, and maintained the car well. Your probability of having a catastrophic engine issue at <100k miles is maybe 2-3%? Bad **** happens to good people. Your options at this point are:
- Option A - You sell it as a roller or part it out. Your net value is still more than the 3 year depreciated value of a Ford Taurus and you had a hell of a lot more fun while it lasted.
- Option B - You get a 4.0 or 4.2 rebuild for $20-25k. Your total cost is a couple thousand more than a 997.2 and you now have a beast of an engine you can enjoy for years to come and pass it to your kids.
- Option C - You rebuild it and sell it. A Raby 4.0 will likely fetch a healthy premium so your total cost of ownership, including the rebuild, is likely a couple thousand less than a 997.2.
- Option D - You get Nickie sleeves. I believe those are 50% of a rebuild so your total cost is $5-10k less than a 997.2.
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Arctic997 (02-14-2020)
08-13-2019, 09:37 AM
#30
Burning Brakes
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jamesinger (08-14-2019)