HELP: Are upgraded turbos and GIAC systems such as EVO Motorsports completely safe?
11-08-2003, 02:45 AM
#16
Burning Brakes
Chad,
The Stage V development car made 700 hp at the flywheel and mine will be well over 700!
And I will let you all know if my motor goes boom at 3500 miles!! If it does I guess I will be the first one to Stage 6!!
The Stage V development car made 700 hp at the flywheel and mine will be well over 700!
And I will let you all know if my motor goes boom at 3500 miles!! If it does I guess I will be the first one to Stage 6!!
11-08-2003, 03:49 AM
#17
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 400
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The use of the motor is the key, especially how long it will be under full-boost for.
I'm sure that most US motors will be relatively unstressed as compared to European motors, given the different driving speeds (especially for you guys in California).
I've done plenty of drives through Germany where I haven't dropped below 135mph for 2 hours and have touched 190mph+ on several parts. Germans expect to be able to hit the autobahn and hit full throttle and hold it there for a long time (especially in southern Germany where the autobahns are less crowded). This is very different to driving through LA and hitting the gas once in a while and taking it up to 100mph for a few seconds.
Guy
NB The above are generalisations, so don't assume I'm talking about anyone here or take offence when I describe typical US drivers, I know some guys on here drive really fast.
I'm sure that most US motors will be relatively unstressed as compared to European motors, given the different driving speeds (especially for you guys in California).
I've done plenty of drives through Germany where I haven't dropped below 135mph for 2 hours and have touched 190mph+ on several parts. Germans expect to be able to hit the autobahn and hit full throttle and hold it there for a long time (especially in southern Germany where the autobahns are less crowded). This is very different to driving through LA and hitting the gas once in a while and taking it up to 100mph for a few seconds.
Guy
NB The above are generalisations, so don't assume I'm talking about anyone here or take offence when I describe typical US drivers, I know some guys on here drive really fast.
11-08-2003, 05:04 AM
#18
Instructor
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Glendale
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EVO has the Stage 5 at 700 hp (like BuddyG said), Gemballa has the Gemballa 750 (which dynoed at 689 whp) but that had internal reinforcing, Sportec has their 700 hp package, Techart has 640 hp, etc. I have read many people on this board with 550-600+ hp as everyday drivers with no engine problems what so ever. Although in the states the stresses put on the engines seem far less than in Europe (could not even imagine 190+, or even 135 for any extended period of time)
11-12-2003, 09:48 PM
#19
Could someone tell why these mod'ed street engines make approx the same performance as the 962C 4 valve water engine did, and after 24 hours these race engines needed a complete rebuild. They had very strong internals.
Is 600+ street HP different than 600+ race HP? I'll tell my friend to remove the numbers from the side of his car and he'll get another season out of the engine!
Is 600+ street HP different than 600+ race HP? I'll tell my friend to remove the numbers from the side of his car and he'll get another season out of the engine!
11-13-2003, 06:27 AM
#21
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally posted by PorschePhD
A 24 hour race is equivalent to 100K miles on the street.
A 24 hour race is equivalent to 100K miles on the street.
If you do say 10000 street miles per annum, that's 27 miles per day - say 3 journeys of 9 miles per day. I would give it maybe 10 full boost "squirts" during each journey at 7seconds per squirt - that's about 21 hours worth of squirts in the 10000 miles, not 100000
OK, the motor will be able to cool down between squirts which obviously helps things - but 100K street miles is waayyy out for me
11-13-2003, 11:19 AM
#22
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
As a mechancial engineer, I have a few questions.
Can a 600hp engine actually develop 600hp on the street? What type of sustained full boost setting will allow the engine to be developing full power, at rated rpm, for more than an instant?
An engine can only produce a given power level if it sees that load put upon it. This is simple to do on a dyno. You simply keep dialing in more load until the engine can't handle it. But what about in the real world? A 962 running in race conditons on the banks at Daytona would have a significantly different "load factor" (% of time at max rated power) than a car on the street.
I have to chuckle about claims of 600 and 700 hp. Sure, the engine can produce that power on a dyno. And sure at part load it is producting more power than a lower rated engine. But under what conditions is it actually putting out full power on the street?
Please enlighten me.
Cheers,
Can a 600hp engine actually develop 600hp on the street? What type of sustained full boost setting will allow the engine to be developing full power, at rated rpm, for more than an instant?
An engine can only produce a given power level if it sees that load put upon it. This is simple to do on a dyno. You simply keep dialing in more load until the engine can't handle it. But what about in the real world? A 962 running in race conditons on the banks at Daytona would have a significantly different "load factor" (% of time at max rated power) than a car on the street.
I have to chuckle about claims of 600 and 700 hp. Sure, the engine can produce that power on a dyno. And sure at part load it is producting more power than a lower rated engine. But under what conditions is it actually putting out full power on the street?
Please enlighten me.
Cheers,
11-13-2003, 12:22 PM
#23
That is exactly the point I was really trying to make. 600/700 HP is all numbers. If you cannot use it why pay for it. Sure it make great bragging rights, but who cares. Put most of these jockeys in a shifter kart and some 10 year old will run rings around them.
The other question I have is this. If these Hot Rod Tuners who claim to offer this huge power saw the internals or knew what they were looking at, they would be scared to offer this HP. To do it properly, the Internals need to be stronger. Its great income for someone.
The other question I have is this. If these Hot Rod Tuners who claim to offer this huge power saw the internals or knew what they were looking at, they would be scared to offer this HP. To do it properly, the Internals need to be stronger. Its great income for someone.
11-14-2003, 03:05 AM
#24
Rennlist Lifetime Member
TB,
It is too hard to rate a street motor especially given the different climate and geographical area. Boost levels, gas, temps all play a big part. The 100K/24HR is a norm that any engine builder would agree on. Or at least those that build true track cars. When we say 100K we mean 100K of wear. Would the motors built for street make it half way through, I doubt it. Maybe, then again maybe 3 hours straight IMO. Typically as a street car I see things wearing out very rapidly at the tune of 50K. Once again it depends on many variables. For me the car is used in daily traffic day in and day out with the occasional track day and trips to the drag strip. My climates range from -10 to 110. If you want numbers, I run leak down and compression test as well as oil analysis on a regular basis. All my leakdown still show 3% or less across the board with near 30K on the ticker. I use my car for a test bed.
Fred,
We make that kind of power typical on a long track such as Road America/Heartland park etc. Depends on the build and turbo, but normally you need load in 4th gear to achieve the 600 number. I personally can care less about the HP, it is the TQ I crave and love. At 3-3500 I have 598RWTQ. That is what makes the car useable. On the strip I can assure you the car is hitting these numbers.
M24racer,
Have you been or seen inside of a 996TT motor? I am in there everyday and know what is in there and what the limitations of the lower end are. Anyone with real experience with the later cars can identify what is in there. There are plenty others that make much more than I do, however rods should be in their future. Any Kit I do up or beyond what I have I will not do it without rods.
Lastly, lets not forget that the 996 motor was derived from the GTI/GT3 motors.
It is too hard to rate a street motor especially given the different climate and geographical area. Boost levels, gas, temps all play a big part. The 100K/24HR is a norm that any engine builder would agree on. Or at least those that build true track cars. When we say 100K we mean 100K of wear. Would the motors built for street make it half way through, I doubt it. Maybe, then again maybe 3 hours straight IMO. Typically as a street car I see things wearing out very rapidly at the tune of 50K. Once again it depends on many variables. For me the car is used in daily traffic day in and day out with the occasional track day and trips to the drag strip. My climates range from -10 to 110. If you want numbers, I run leak down and compression test as well as oil analysis on a regular basis. All my leakdown still show 3% or less across the board with near 30K on the ticker. I use my car for a test bed.
Fred,
We make that kind of power typical on a long track such as Road America/Heartland park etc. Depends on the build and turbo, but normally you need load in 4th gear to achieve the 600 number. I personally can care less about the HP, it is the TQ I crave and love. At 3-3500 I have 598RWTQ. That is what makes the car useable. On the strip I can assure you the car is hitting these numbers.
M24racer,
Have you been or seen inside of a 996TT motor? I am in there everyday and know what is in there and what the limitations of the lower end are. Anyone with real experience with the later cars can identify what is in there. There are plenty others that make much more than I do, however rods should be in their future. Any Kit I do up or beyond what I have I will not do it without rods.
Lastly, lets not forget that the 996 motor was derived from the GTI/GT3 motors.
Last edited by PorschePhD; 11-14-2003 at 03:24 AM.
11-14-2003, 04:41 AM
#25
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 400
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seriously powerful cars cannot be run on full boost for any length of time on the street, due to the speeds reached.
When I had my 750bhp Skyline R34GTR (dynoed not guessed), on most roads it was impossible to hold full throttle for more than 10 seconds, simply because if you did that from 60mph, you would be travelling at about 160mph or more after 10 secs and the roads aren't up to it. The only exception was when driving on German Autobahns at 3am, when longer bursts were sustained since the car is loaded against air resistance (at a GPS verified 199mph) and holding full boost for 30 second plus periods (kinda like an air-dyno).
If you run at max speed you will hold the car on full boost at full power, but in reality on the street almost no-one who owns 190mph+ cars will ever do this, so the power is used for transient spikes of 5-10 seconds, hence why they last.....
I have maxed out every car I've ever owned, but I've yet to do it with the GT2, as I haven't found the right road conditions, though I've seen an indicated 190mph.
Guy
When I had my 750bhp Skyline R34GTR (dynoed not guessed), on most roads it was impossible to hold full throttle for more than 10 seconds, simply because if you did that from 60mph, you would be travelling at about 160mph or more after 10 secs and the roads aren't up to it. The only exception was when driving on German Autobahns at 3am, when longer bursts were sustained since the car is loaded against air resistance (at a GPS verified 199mph) and holding full boost for 30 second plus periods (kinda like an air-dyno).
If you run at max speed you will hold the car on full boost at full power, but in reality on the street almost no-one who owns 190mph+ cars will ever do this, so the power is used for transient spikes of 5-10 seconds, hence why they last.....
I have maxed out every car I've ever owned, but I've yet to do it with the GT2, as I haven't found the right road conditions, though I've seen an indicated 190mph.
Guy
11-15-2003, 03:01 AM
#26
PorschePHD, I have seen inside both 996TT and each version of the 996 race engines. Very different pieces. If I saw the same thing you saw, and you think the internals of a 996TT is up to High Torque, I'm glad your not advising me. The engine shop I am around often, showed me the insides of both Cup and RS engines. I also know they have been asked to possibly upgrade the internals of a 996TT engine, who's owner is concerned about the strength. from asking them sometime ago about this upgrade, they told me the first problem to solve is the Crankshaft oiling problem. The 996TT engines have different oiling I'm told, along with a different Crankshaft spec etc. Hey, if your engine is ok, great. There are other out there who think otherwise. Seems to me it about selling computer upgrades. It would be alot harder to sell if the customers really knew their engines were in possible peril. Again, 700HP or whatever Torque you have, and its used for 5 - 10 secs. Big whop!
11-15-2003, 03:18 AM
#27
Rennlist Lifetime Member
Amazing insight 42. If you have really seen the inside of a 996TT can you tell me what is different about the oiling system in regards to the case, crank, possibly what the rods are, the bearing surface size or where or how it relates to prior Porsches. Possibly what the wear is on the bolts or the measurements on average on a modified 996TT at 15-30-50K miles. I build approximately 4-5 motors a month and all turbos and have no failures in the industry, period. This conversation is nearing a level that is not helpful.Your sarcasm is not helpful in this post as it is not in many others. Interesting enough I know few that have any experience with these motors on the inside and certainly haven't the proper tools. My questions to you were truly an inquiry to the level of background in to these motors and you greet it with a combative retort. My position was to help provide information into a motor that few have even opened. To date, I still have true miles logged at these levels. The day I stop wanting to learn something is the day I need to hang up the towel and go back to a desk job. I certainly don't claim to know it all and never will, but I love learning and do so by a hands on approach. I build far more older 930 motors than I do computer tuning. As I said, it is not my goal to combat, rather give you guys real world use and information. Very few actually drive these cars. Bottom line is I do.
You are correct, that the sprints down the back is apx 20 secs, but I get to do it over and over. That is a blast to feel that type of force slamming you in the seat. Sorry I am not part of the 700 club. 512RWHP/RW589TQ
You are correct, that the sprints down the back is apx 20 secs, but I get to do it over and over. That is a blast to feel that type of force slamming you in the seat. Sorry I am not part of the 700 club. 512RWHP/RW589TQ
Last edited by PorschePhD; 11-15-2003 at 04:09 AM.
11-15-2003, 06:37 AM
#28
Nordschleife Master
Stephen,
Don't worry about M42Racer, been there, done that. It's not worth the time or effort. He sort of reminds you of a more educated George-V8. If only we could all be so fortunate to watch a shop's work and become instant experts in all fields of automotive mechanics. Maybe there is something to this osmosis thing I keep hearing about.
Don't worry about M42Racer, been there, done that. It's not worth the time or effort. He sort of reminds you of a more educated George-V8. If only we could all be so fortunate to watch a shop's work and become instant experts in all fields of automotive mechanics. Maybe there is something to this osmosis thing I keep hearing about.
