HELP: Are upgraded turbos and GIAC systems such as EVO Motorsports completely safe?
11-16-2003, 11:42 AM
#47
Rennlist Lifetime Member
TB,
Not sure how one can be convinced when the dyno sheets are all over the place. (incidentally dyno sheets are only half of the game.)All which have been over 550RWTQ. The reason I have to say that the difference in dyno is not a valid issue is because the product has been tested on DynaPacks, Mustang and DynoJet. All have yielded the same numbers. As I have said, step back into the other markets and look at what I am known for and what I provide to the community. If anything I have underrated the engines being built rather than overstated. I understand your points, and it seems that the general census is if you are not from Germany then there is no way you can be as good as them. There is a commercial over here that I absolutely love...."We don't build them, we make them better..." Consider that to be the case. I will send you all the dyno sheets that you want. I will even have you call the dyno for direct copies from them if tampering is in question. The key is in the turbos and the tuning. Sometimes a fresh look and a different angle is all that is needed. I have been told many times, not possible. I chuckle at that, what a sad state of denial and un-openness. I have been posting these numbers silently for the past year. Not sure why all the sudden this becomes a key subject. Even recently we finally just broke the 485HP mark in the 930s on CIS and now can beyond that. For 10 years I have heard that 500+ will never be done on CIS, yet we figured out a way to do that and rid the piggy back systems. In the 996TT it is no different. The programming from GIAC is key as well as the turbos, the package and the goal. We certainly offers a different look at the possibilities. If you have any reason what so ever to come to the states on Dec 1/2 you should come to LA. We will be testing against some of the brains in Germany and others in the US. Not sure how we will fair, but would be a good opportunity for you to meet myself, Kevin and a car.
Not sure how one can be convinced when the dyno sheets are all over the place. (incidentally dyno sheets are only half of the game.)All which have been over 550RWTQ. The reason I have to say that the difference in dyno is not a valid issue is because the product has been tested on DynaPacks, Mustang and DynoJet. All have yielded the same numbers. As I have said, step back into the other markets and look at what I am known for and what I provide to the community. If anything I have underrated the engines being built rather than overstated. I understand your points, and it seems that the general census is if you are not from Germany then there is no way you can be as good as them. There is a commercial over here that I absolutely love...."We don't build them, we make them better..." Consider that to be the case. I will send you all the dyno sheets that you want. I will even have you call the dyno for direct copies from them if tampering is in question. The key is in the turbos and the tuning. Sometimes a fresh look and a different angle is all that is needed. I have been told many times, not possible. I chuckle at that, what a sad state of denial and un-openness. I have been posting these numbers silently for the past year. Not sure why all the sudden this becomes a key subject. Even recently we finally just broke the 485HP mark in the 930s on CIS and now can beyond that. For 10 years I have heard that 500+ will never be done on CIS, yet we figured out a way to do that and rid the piggy back systems. In the 996TT it is no different. The programming from GIAC is key as well as the turbos, the package and the goal. We certainly offers a different look at the possibilities. If you have any reason what so ever to come to the states on Dec 1/2 you should come to LA. We will be testing against some of the brains in Germany and others in the US. Not sure how we will fair, but would be a good opportunity for you to meet myself, Kevin and a car.
Last edited by PorschePhD; 11-16-2003 at 12:08 PM.
11-16-2003, 02:41 PM
#48
Nordschleife Master
Chad,
Those numbers look MUCH better than ones you've posted previously. What did you do different to get rid of the cycling in the torque and HP curves? How is the M800 research going? MoTeC is getting ready to announce some new ECU models.
Those numbers look MUCH better than ones you've posted previously. What did you do different to get rid of the cycling in the torque and HP curves? How is the M800 research going? MoTeC is getting ready to announce some new ECU models.
11-16-2003, 07:02 PM
#50
Burning Brakes
Originally posted by PorschePhD
Even recently we finally just broke the 485HP mark in the 930s on CIS and now can beyond that. For 10 years I have heard that 500+ will never be done on CIS, yet we figured out a way to do that and rid the piggy back systems.
Even recently we finally just broke the 485HP mark in the 930s on CIS and now can beyond that. For 10 years I have heard that 500+ will never be done on CIS, yet we figured out a way to do that and rid the piggy back systems.
11-16-2003, 10:25 PM
#51
Nordschleife Master
If you go back to my previous posts on Stage ??? I thought it was the two systems fighting each other which would make sense. So 5 bar base fuel pressure with vacuum line disconnected would make 6bar at 1bar of boost. Have you had your fuel injectors flowed at various fuel pressures? I've noticed a diminishing return of flow from 3bar to 5bar and beyond 5 bar sometimes very little is gained. You might have RC Engineering give you the flow values at the various fuel pressures. Remember that the fuel pressure regulator is manifold referenced, so with 1 bar of boost, you'll be operating in a 2 bar range, in your case, 4-6bar.
11-17-2003, 04:35 AM
#53
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Wow thats a high fuel pressure. I always felt it was better to raise the injector size, rather than increase the pressure too much as the flow becomes less controlled under very high pressures.
Bear in mind I am only a customer, not a tuner, but when I was active in the Skyline GTR Tuning Scene we tended to use the following maximums for power/injector:
stock 440cc - up to 480bhp at crank
550cc - up to 580bhp at crank
720cc - up to about 750bhp at crank
1000cc - more than 750bhp at crank
Mind you we ran the cars at lower fuel pressures (3 or 3.5bar) and ran richer (about 11.5:1 AFR). We used 6 injectors so the figures are comparable.
My old drag R32 GTR had six 720cc injectors and six 550cc injectors on a secondary rail. Current dyno under new owner is 1050bhp at the axles on a Dynapack, not bad for 2.6 litres......
Guy
Bear in mind I am only a customer, not a tuner, but when I was active in the Skyline GTR Tuning Scene we tended to use the following maximums for power/injector:
stock 440cc - up to 480bhp at crank
550cc - up to 580bhp at crank
720cc - up to about 750bhp at crank
1000cc - more than 750bhp at crank
Mind you we ran the cars at lower fuel pressures (3 or 3.5bar) and ran richer (about 11.5:1 AFR). We used 6 injectors so the figures are comparable.
My old drag R32 GTR had six 720cc injectors and six 550cc injectors on a secondary rail. Current dyno under new owner is 1050bhp at the axles on a Dynapack, not bad for 2.6 litres......
Guy
11-17-2003, 09:42 AM
#54
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"My old drag R32 GTR had six 720cc injectors and six 550cc injectors on a secondary rail. Current dyno under new owner is 1050bhp at the axles on a Dynapack, not bad for 2.6 litres......"
I suspect at 40+psi of boost. The GTR was a pretty awesome car that would surely embarrass a lot of Porsche and Ferrari owners here in the US. SD
I suspect at 40+psi of boost. The GTR was a pretty awesome car that would surely embarrass a lot of Porsche and Ferrari owners here in the US. SD
11-17-2003, 10:04 AM
#55
Nordschleife Master
Chad, as a reference, we are running 82lb/hr injectors at 3bar fuel pressure in a 3.8l single turbo race car that makes 699rwhp and the injectors are maxed out. There needs to be a way to find out the duty cycle of the injectors. Without that information, you may never know, especially on just a few dyno runs if the injectors are maxing out. By the time you see it in the AFR numbers, its too late.
Also, I'm not sure if this is applicable to the 996, but at the 699rwhp level in a 993, the longevity of the engine diminishes considerably. The weak link appears to be the piston which crack around the wrist pin area.
Also, I'm not sure if this is applicable to the 996, but at the 699rwhp level in a 993, the longevity of the engine diminishes considerably. The weak link appears to be the piston which crack around the wrist pin area.
11-17-2003, 02:04 PM
#56
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Originally posted by PorschePhD
Hey Tyson, how do I drive
Here is one of my old creations 
Twin Turbo
Hey Tyson, how do I drive
Here is one of my old creations Twin Turbo
Wait til you see how I drive. Especially in twisties.
There is a reason why I have cracked my headers several times at 1.2 bar...
And these headers aren't exactly thin either.
11-20-2003, 04:03 AM
#59
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Originally posted by PorschePhD
A 24 hour race is equivalent to 100K miles on the street.
A 24 hour race is equivalent to 100K miles on the street.
Well, on the other hand, I drive 5K miles per year. I bet she won't last 480K miles... (5K * 96 years). So, maybe I'll only get 20 years out of her.
With all the traffic out here, ridiculously low speed limits, etc, the chance to drive at full boost for any extended period (without jail time) is a pipe dream here in AZ. Well, except for at the race track...
But, on the track you've got two choices. Drive with inexperienced yahoos in the open track groups (not my idea of fun in a $150K car in pristine condition) or put in a cage and drive with the licensed maniacs in the race group... I chose the latter, but bought a more appropriate vehicle for an activity that could claim my vehicle at any point in time during a weekend.
Yours in speed,
