Lost it in my GT 2 yesterday
04-26-2003 | 11:30 AM
#31
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Hamann,
I think you went too far on this one.
This is about Porsche's, and how they are driven, not about the abilities or motivations of who drives them. Those issues are truly unknowable; and this is America. Anyone can buy and own a Porsche for whatever reason, period.
The quest to drive a Porsche properly is a lifelong journey, and hopefully an enjoyable one, everyone moves at a different speed (no pun ontended). Ever notice after you sell a Porsche how quickly the need to own one returns again?.
One might argue that if you were a true purist, you could have bought a Porsche for business, and rented a car for the days you needed a four door. Yes, I've been down that road. But like I said (and not because I said it ) this is America and everyone has their freedoms and rights to do and say what they chose. It's not a zero sum game, so for someone to be right, another one doesn't have to be wrong
In the broadest sense, there was nothing wrong with docjackson's (gratuitous?) comment and the odd caution about were to use speed is a useful reminder to us all.
The public roads are OK, to test the limits, when there is no chance of endangering others.
Ownig a Porsche is an emotional experience, and it seems to me that you have the GT3 fever pretty bad. It appears that you're already driving it vicariously through your posts.
I hope you get it soon!
I think you went too far on this one.
This is about Porsche's, and how they are driven, not about the abilities or motivations of who drives them. Those issues are truly unknowable; and this is America. Anyone can buy and own a Porsche for whatever reason, period.
The quest to drive a Porsche properly is a lifelong journey, and hopefully an enjoyable one, everyone moves at a different speed (no pun ontended). Ever notice after you sell a Porsche how quickly the need to own one returns again?.
One might argue that if you were a true purist, you could have bought a Porsche for business, and rented a car for the days you needed a four door. Yes, I've been down that road. But like I said (and not because I said it ) this is America and everyone has their freedoms and rights to do and say what they chose. It's not a zero sum game, so for someone to be right, another one doesn't have to be wrong
In the broadest sense, there was nothing wrong with docjackson's (gratuitous?) comment and the odd caution about were to use speed is a useful reminder to us all.
The public roads are OK, to test the limits, when there is no chance of endangering others.
Ownig a Porsche is an emotional experience, and it seems to me that you have the GT3 fever pretty bad. It appears that you're already driving it vicariously through your posts.
I hope you get it soon!
04-26-2003 | 03:22 PM
#33
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From Colm:
"Ever notice after you sell a Porsche how quickly the need to own one returns again?."
well, it's here for me, sold the gt2 in Jan and thought i'd hang until the gt3 gets here [july build, safely late sept./oct delivery]. but i can't stand it, i'm back in the market for a gt2. so let me know if you see an '03 below invoice or miles '02 below 150...
Tyson/Hammann,
Colm is right. Hamann and I are friends, and he has been known to [and others sometimes] espouse "extreme" positions merely to have fun, and provoke further discussion!!! Not that i ever do that.... we all love the best examples of porsche's God given wonderfulness: and TT's, GT3, GT2, RS, early S cars are truly wonderful with differences.
"Ever notice after you sell a Porsche how quickly the need to own one returns again?."
well, it's here for me, sold the gt2 in Jan and thought i'd hang until the gt3 gets here [july build, safely late sept./oct delivery]. but i can't stand it, i'm back in the market for a gt2. so let me know if you see an '03 below invoice or miles '02 below 150...
Tyson/Hammann,
Colm is right. Hamann and I are friends, and he has been known to [and others sometimes] espouse "extreme" positions merely to have fun, and provoke further discussion!!! Not that i ever do that.... we all love the best examples of porsche's God given wonderfulness: and TT's, GT3, GT2, RS, early S cars are truly wonderful with differences.
04-28-2003 | 01:04 AM
#38
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cjv, my comments do not exactly apply to you. What you are bringing up is a seperate discussion in itself. My opinion in your case, which is the same thing I've told wilber, is that the 993/996 AWD system is not designed for racing. The earlier race-derived AWD systems incorporated a technology called PSK, which infinitely varied torque split to the front wheels (up to 50/50) based on conditions instantaneously using a computer and mucho electronics. Of course, it had reliability issues, but it was a far superior system to the modern Porsche AWD system.
You can modify your car all you want and even put a full race setup on it, but I am pretty sure that you will not turn faster lap times on most courses than a GT3-RS or a Carrera GT. Your basic methodology of putting max power with max suspension parts seems sound on the outset, but I don't think you are accounting for the car's "balance." You are attempting to reengineer a car that Porsche has spend mega $$$ in the first place to get right. This is no easy task, as you know.
Look at how much modification it takes for a 996TT to even equal the GT2's time at the 'Ring. I am not sure that even a "Nardo" Ruf R Turbo would be able to match its time easily. Why is this? Because power is not everything. It is how it's delivered and how it's controlled. Under your premise, the Nissan Skyline GT-R, which can be tuned to 1000+ hp, would be the ultimate sports car. It's AWD system is way more advanced than the Porsche's. But it is not the ultimate performance car.
Although the neutral handling of the AWD is more favorable in the entry phase and mid corner phase during cornering, it doesn't provide the "correctability" of power oversteer in the exit phase. AWD cars simply do not communicate the car's attitude and the road condition every moment, which would enable you to decide how to control the car in the next moment. When dealing with the 750 hp you are talking about, this could be slightly important.
As far as your comment about AWD being banned in racing goes, people usually refer to the Audis being banned in BTCC racing with their Quattro system. But who was their competition? Not Porsche. Those cars are considerably slower than FIA GT cars. This is not really the best of examples to show the superiority of AWD.
By the way, remember F1's experiment with four wheel drive in 1969. It was quickly abandoned after ONE season, where all the AWD cars placed at the end of the pack. Hmmmm... makes you wonder.
With all due respect, the performance of your car has yet to be proven under race conditions, so all we can do is speculate. I guess we will find out at the 'shootout' in a couple of weeks, won't we? I hope your car will perform to your expectations after all the work, sweat, and toil you have put into it.
Like I've said before, if RWD and PSM was the best thing, then why doesn't the Carrera GT, McLaren F1, Ferrari Enzo, etc. include it?
You can modify your car all you want and even put a full race setup on it, but I am pretty sure that you will not turn faster lap times on most courses than a GT3-RS or a Carrera GT. Your basic methodology of putting max power with max suspension parts seems sound on the outset, but I don't think you are accounting for the car's "balance." You are attempting to reengineer a car that Porsche has spend mega $$$ in the first place to get right. This is no easy task, as you know.
Look at how much modification it takes for a 996TT to even equal the GT2's time at the 'Ring. I am not sure that even a "Nardo" Ruf R Turbo would be able to match its time easily. Why is this? Because power is not everything. It is how it's delivered and how it's controlled. Under your premise, the Nissan Skyline GT-R, which can be tuned to 1000+ hp, would be the ultimate sports car. It's AWD system is way more advanced than the Porsche's. But it is not the ultimate performance car.
Although the neutral handling of the AWD is more favorable in the entry phase and mid corner phase during cornering, it doesn't provide the "correctability" of power oversteer in the exit phase. AWD cars simply do not communicate the car's attitude and the road condition every moment, which would enable you to decide how to control the car in the next moment. When dealing with the 750 hp you are talking about, this could be slightly important.
As far as your comment about AWD being banned in racing goes, people usually refer to the Audis being banned in BTCC racing with their Quattro system. But who was their competition? Not Porsche. Those cars are considerably slower than FIA GT cars. This is not really the best of examples to show the superiority of AWD.
By the way, remember F1's experiment with four wheel drive in 1969. It was quickly abandoned after ONE season, where all the AWD cars placed at the end of the pack. Hmmmm... makes you wonder.
With all due respect, the performance of your car has yet to be proven under race conditions, so all we can do is speculate. I guess we will find out at the 'shootout' in a couple of weeks, won't we? I hope your car will perform to your expectations after all the work, sweat, and toil you have put into it.
Like I've said before, if RWD and PSM was the best thing, then why doesn't the Carrera GT, McLaren F1, Ferrari Enzo, etc. include it?
04-28-2003 | 01:17 AM
#39
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Colm, my only objection to docjackson's comments was his snide and arrogant tone in criticizing emorgan. Like the couch quarterback who says that he could've thrown the pass better than Rich Gannon or even Payton Manning.
His 'gratuitous' comments weren't a friendly reminder, it was a 'you ****ing idiot' reminder from someone who probably hasn't taken his car past 4000rpm.
There is a difference!
Watt is correct, I do take certain positions to provoke discussion, but it does **** me off when people like docjackson criticize and even insult others without having the basis to do so. People do not post their experiences in their GT2 on this board to get railed upon by castrated Porsche drivers. Rather, emorgan was just trying to show how temperamental the GT2 can be.
As others have said, in the right hands, the GT2 is a precision scalpel that is hard to beat. But it can bite you if you aren't careful with it. Look at F1 cars, they are very difficult to drive well! But when you master them, nothing can match its pace. To the people that pursue the extreme, I SALUTE YOU!
His 'gratuitous' comments weren't a friendly reminder, it was a 'you ****ing idiot' reminder from someone who probably hasn't taken his car past 4000rpm.
There is a difference!
Watt is correct, I do take certain positions to provoke discussion, but it does **** me off when people like docjackson criticize and even insult others without having the basis to do so. People do not post their experiences in their GT2 on this board to get railed upon by castrated Porsche drivers. Rather, emorgan was just trying to show how temperamental the GT2 can be.
As others have said, in the right hands, the GT2 is a precision scalpel that is hard to beat. But it can bite you if you aren't careful with it. Look at F1 cars, they are very difficult to drive well! But when you master them, nothing can match its pace. To the people that pursue the extreme, I SALUTE YOU!
04-28-2003 | 01:23 AM
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Hamann,
I like that kind of post, reasoned, questioning and instructive.
I realise thatChad has put a lot into his car, has a lot of engineering experience, but I have have the same intuitive philosophy and questions, mainly if AWD were the ultimate answer then why don't the supercars (like you pointed out) use all wheel drive?. Afterall, expense is no object. It might also be useful to note that the 959 used AWD, but the C-GT doesn't go down that path, I wonder why?
I'm sure Chad is up to the challenge, and will advance our understanding...but he may never convince me (us?), for the reasons you point out. I'm open minded enough, I hope, to be converted to the AWD point of view, but it is a tough road to hoe based upon my seat of the pants experiences.
We may finish up agreeing that there are "horses for courses" .
I like that kind of post, reasoned, questioning and instructive.
I realise thatChad has put a lot into his car, has a lot of engineering experience, but I have have the same intuitive philosophy and questions, mainly if AWD were the ultimate answer then why don't the supercars (like you pointed out) use all wheel drive?. Afterall, expense is no object. It might also be useful to note that the 959 used AWD, but the C-GT doesn't go down that path, I wonder why?
I'm sure Chad is up to the challenge, and will advance our understanding...but he may never convince me (us?), for the reasons you point out. I'm open minded enough, I hope, to be converted to the AWD point of view, but it is a tough road to hoe based upon my seat of the pants experiences.
We may finish up agreeing that there are "horses for courses" .
04-28-2003 | 01:34 AM
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Hamann,
My comments refered to your previous posts, since you brought up docjackson again, if I were in your shoes I would simply say I got carried away and apologize, because you really did go too far, and you can't rationalize that.
I'm not critizing you, I'm equally capable of the same impatient behaviour. But I would like to think after it was pointed out to me I would make it right.
My comments refered to your previous posts, since you brought up docjackson again, if I were in your shoes I would simply say I got carried away and apologize, because you really did go too far, and you can't rationalize that.
I'm not critizing you, I'm equally capable of the same impatient behaviour. But I would like to think after it was pointed out to me I would make it right.
04-28-2003 | 01:47 AM
#42
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I apologize to docjackson for implying that he was castrated or is missing his ********* or that he may be a homosexual or one of the many physicians that are overbilling HMOs.
I am sure he is an upstanding heterosexual citizen who likes to drive his Porsche in a manner in which he sees fit.
I forgot that physicians are risk averse people in general. I have many friends that are docs, and while they are nice people, they aren't the most exciting. Maybe that's why I decided that med school wasn't for me? Of course, there are exceptions to every rule, like drjim and his 550hp Ruf R Turbo.
The liberal, self-righteous, and arrogant characterizations still apply, however. Maybe I need to work on my "zen" and my "inner peace." Oh well.
I am sure he is an upstanding heterosexual citizen who likes to drive his Porsche in a manner in which he sees fit.
I forgot that physicians are risk averse people in general. I have many friends that are docs, and while they are nice people, they aren't the most exciting. Maybe that's why I decided that med school wasn't for me? Of course, there are exceptions to every rule, like drjim and his 550hp Ruf R Turbo.
The liberal, self-righteous, and arrogant characterizations still apply, however. Maybe I need to work on my "zen" and my "inner peace." Oh well.
04-28-2003 | 01:20 PM
#43
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Hamann, You are right. After long and careful consideration, I'm going to sell my R turbo and sign up for pottery classes at the local community college. Do you think they will let me wear my helment while I'm at "the wheel"? I'm also going to have my silastic testicular implants removed - After all - who am I kidding? I was doomed to a boring, low risk life the day I marticulated for medical school. Thanks for the "reality check". Do you know where I might buy a nice, low mile minivan? I think lavender would be the most appropriate color. Thanks again for your concern and guidance - Jim ( a wimpy, "averse to risk", DOCTOR with alarmingly low baseline testosterone levels )
04-28-2003 | 01:46 PM
#45
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by jimrd:
<strong>Hamann, You are right. After long and careful consideration, I'm going to sell my R turbo and sign up for pottery classes at the local community college. Do you think they will let me wear my helment while I'm at "the wheel"? I'm also going to have my silastic testicular implants removed - After all - who am I kidding? I was doomed to a boring, low risk life the day I marticulated for medical school. Thanks for the "reality check". Do you know where I might buy a nice, low mile minivan? I think lavender would be the most appropriate color. Thanks again for your concern and guidance - Jim ( a wimpy, "averse to risk", DOCTOR with alarmingly low baseline testosterone levels )</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Now Jim, in my defense, I specifically stated in my post, "Of course, there are exceptions to every rule, like drjim and his 550hp Ruf R Turbo."
dr. jim meant you, so don't feel offended. I've spoken with you before and you are a very cool guy, even for a doc. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
My post was clearly targeted at someone else. <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />
There are generally two kinds of doctors in this world, the kind that tell everyone not to drink, smoke, drive fast, sleep with a lot of girls, eat meat, etc. and the kind that enjoy life by doing some or all of the above. Like the cardio surgeon in Chicago that goes into The Chophouse restaurant once a month and takes down a 112 oz. steak! YEAH! <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
<strong>Hamann, You are right. After long and careful consideration, I'm going to sell my R turbo and sign up for pottery classes at the local community college. Do you think they will let me wear my helment while I'm at "the wheel"? I'm also going to have my silastic testicular implants removed - After all - who am I kidding? I was doomed to a boring, low risk life the day I marticulated for medical school. Thanks for the "reality check". Do you know where I might buy a nice, low mile minivan? I think lavender would be the most appropriate color. Thanks again for your concern and guidance - Jim ( a wimpy, "averse to risk", DOCTOR with alarmingly low baseline testosterone levels )</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Now Jim, in my defense, I specifically stated in my post, "Of course, there are exceptions to every rule, like drjim and his 550hp Ruf R Turbo."
dr. jim meant you, so don't feel offended. I've spoken with you before and you are a very cool guy, even for a doc. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
My post was clearly targeted at someone else. <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />
There are generally two kinds of doctors in this world, the kind that tell everyone not to drink, smoke, drive fast, sleep with a lot of girls, eat meat, etc. and the kind that enjoy life by doing some or all of the above. Like the cardio surgeon in Chicago that goes into The Chophouse restaurant once a month and takes down a 112 oz. steak! YEAH! <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />