New Suspension To Add 100HP?!
04-22-2003, 12:06 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
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New Suspension To Add 100HP?!
I just got off the phone with Glenn from Glenn's Independent Porsche in San Dimas, CA. Keep in mind that he has been involved in racing Porsche's since before I was born.
I originally contacted him to install an exhaust system, and we got to talking about every possible mod you can do to a TT.
He basically all but called me immature when I told him about swapping the ECU/DME. He says "all you (TT) people want to do is add power. The (TT) has far more than enough power as it is. What you need is a better way to harness that power." He says that adding a GT3 or similar suspension package to the TT will be like adding 100HP to the car without ever touching the engine or ECU. He says that all Porsche vehicles from the late 80's forward have a tremendous amount of understeer. There is a long and tedious story about how this came about, but suffice it to say that it is related to a court decision from our People's Republik of Kalifornia. If you correct that understeer and provide a stiffer ride, you will improve track performance by an incredible amount.
OK. Assuming everything he said is correct, I want to pursue the PSS9 suspension. I have seen this as cheap as US$2300. A couple of questions now:
1. Is Carnewal the cheapest place to the PSS9.
2. Is there any advantage to getting another suspension package (ie. RUF, EVO GT3)
3. Being that my driving is 90% street, 10% track, am I going to hate having a stiffer suspension?
4. What is an appropriate price for installation/alignment.
Thanks, Ryan
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
I originally contacted him to install an exhaust system, and we got to talking about every possible mod you can do to a TT.
He basically all but called me immature when I told him about swapping the ECU/DME. He says "all you (TT) people want to do is add power. The (TT) has far more than enough power as it is. What you need is a better way to harness that power." He says that adding a GT3 or similar suspension package to the TT will be like adding 100HP to the car without ever touching the engine or ECU. He says that all Porsche vehicles from the late 80's forward have a tremendous amount of understeer. There is a long and tedious story about how this came about, but suffice it to say that it is related to a court decision from our People's Republik of Kalifornia. If you correct that understeer and provide a stiffer ride, you will improve track performance by an incredible amount.
OK. Assuming everything he said is correct, I want to pursue the PSS9 suspension. I have seen this as cheap as US$2300. A couple of questions now:
1. Is Carnewal the cheapest place to the PSS9.
2. Is there any advantage to getting another suspension package (ie. RUF, EVO GT3)
3. Being that my driving is 90% street, 10% track, am I going to hate having a stiffer suspension?
4. What is an appropriate price for installation/alignment.
Thanks, Ryan
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
04-22-2003, 12:10 PM
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Three Wheelin'
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I don't think changing the suspension will be like adding 100 hp. I'd say it's more like adding 200 hp. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
04-22-2003, 12:11 PM
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I'd go w/ the RUF. Everyone says it is just amazing for daily driving and is very forgiving on the stiffness side. If i'm not wrong the stiffness on the pss9 is adjustable so you should be able to tinker w/ it to find the perfect setting for you.
Suspension is key, and this guy is right. But why not do this and add 100 HP
Suspension is key, and this guy is right. But why not do this and add 100 HP
04-22-2003, 01:01 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Trojan Man:
<strong>
[...]
He basically all but called me immature when I told him about swapping the ECU/DME. He says "all you (TT) people want to do is add power. The (TT) has far more than enough power as it is. What you need is a better way to harness that power."[...]
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">That's exactly what my mechanics told me about 1 year ago, yeah. So I went for following upgrades:
- H&R suspension
- front strut-bar
- race brake fluid (SRF)
- Pagid brake pads
and a few other things like bucket seats, rollbar, harnesses, Techart 34cm steering-wheel, Techart short-shifter, semi-slicks for the track (Pirelli Corsa), etc.
Needles to say, the suspension and brakes upgrades are well worth it, and make a huge difference on the track. I'd recommend doing something similar, then add more power if you still need it... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Greetings,
--Pierre
<strong>
[...]
He basically all but called me immature when I told him about swapping the ECU/DME. He says "all you (TT) people want to do is add power. The (TT) has far more than enough power as it is. What you need is a better way to harness that power."[...]
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">That's exactly what my mechanics told me about 1 year ago, yeah. So I went for following upgrades:
- H&R suspension
- front strut-bar
- race brake fluid (SRF)
- Pagid brake pads
and a few other things like bucket seats, rollbar, harnesses, Techart 34cm steering-wheel, Techart short-shifter, semi-slicks for the track (Pirelli Corsa), etc.
Needles to say, the suspension and brakes upgrades are well worth it, and make a huge difference on the track. I'd recommend doing something similar, then add more power if you still need it... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Greetings,
--Pierre
04-22-2003, 01:27 PM
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I am using the FVD PSS-9's and love them. I was at Sebring and had Chin's master instructor out for a ride and he concurs that the suspension is great. I have them set on 3 all around and don't find them too harsh on our mostly smooth roads here in S. Fla.
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04-22-2003, 01:43 PM
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Burning Brakes
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KPV, about the court decision:
In the 80's and before (so I hear) most, if not all Porsches had quite the OVERsteer. There was a San Diego man who owned a 930 Turbo. He let his wife drive it one day, and she took a co-worker with her to lunch in the 930. She wanted to show off what the car could do, but she was far from a race driver, got in over her head and crashed, completely demolishing the passenger side of the car. Passenger died instantly and driver was seriously injured.
Now here's where it gets interesting: there was a TSB or some other kind of memo circulating inside Porsche that there was a known OVERsteer problem, and that inexperienced drivers could get hurt. Somehow the families of the victims found out about it, sued Porsche for safety/design defect and they were awarded Megabuck$.
Since then, the unofficial Porsche philosophy has been to build cars with UNDERsteer. This causes a tendency toward head-on collisions rather than offset or side crashes. The idea behind that is that it's easier to blame the driver for a head on crash.
If anyone knows otherwise, please don't ream me, as I'm just repeating the story that I heard from someone else.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
In the 80's and before (so I hear) most, if not all Porsches had quite the OVERsteer. There was a San Diego man who owned a 930 Turbo. He let his wife drive it one day, and she took a co-worker with her to lunch in the 930. She wanted to show off what the car could do, but she was far from a race driver, got in over her head and crashed, completely demolishing the passenger side of the car. Passenger died instantly and driver was seriously injured.
Now here's where it gets interesting: there was a TSB or some other kind of memo circulating inside Porsche that there was a known OVERsteer problem, and that inexperienced drivers could get hurt. Somehow the families of the victims found out about it, sued Porsche for safety/design defect and they were awarded Megabuck$.
Since then, the unofficial Porsche philosophy has been to build cars with UNDERsteer. This causes a tendency toward head-on collisions rather than offset or side crashes. The idea behind that is that it's easier to blame the driver for a head on crash.
If anyone knows otherwise, please don't ream me, as I'm just repeating the story that I heard from someone else.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
04-22-2003, 02:27 PM
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For those in the San Diego area, that accident happened on that traffic congested fast downhill sweep of Torrey Pines Rd ( several off camber fast turns ) as it descends from UCSD into La Jolla .
04-22-2003, 03:08 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Robin Samms:
<strong>Question: Is the RUF suspension also based on the PSS-9 ?
Robin</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yes, made by Bilstein to Ruf's proprietary specs for spring/shock rates.
<strong>Question: Is the RUF suspension also based on the PSS-9 ?
Robin</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yes, made by Bilstein to Ruf's proprietary specs for spring/shock rates.
04-22-2003, 03:34 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Trojan Man:
<strong>...... Being that my driving is 90% street, 10% track, am I going to hate having a stiffer suspension?
Thanks, Ryan
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Actually, Ryan, my experience (going from stock to a coil over suspension) has been an improvement in ride quality, along with a firmer, better handling car. I know this may sound strange, but my coil over suspension (which lacks adjustable shock dampening) made my car's ride more compliant (read less harsh) than stock, while improving the handling greatly. Of course, aesthetics didn't suffer any from the suspension change. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Hopefully, others who have made the change will chime in -- I do not know of anyone who has made the "suspension upgrade" and has been disappointed.
<strong>...... Being that my driving is 90% street, 10% track, am I going to hate having a stiffer suspension?
Thanks, Ryan
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Actually, Ryan, my experience (going from stock to a coil over suspension) has been an improvement in ride quality, along with a firmer, better handling car. I know this may sound strange, but my coil over suspension (which lacks adjustable shock dampening) made my car's ride more compliant (read less harsh) than stock, while improving the handling greatly. Of course, aesthetics didn't suffer any from the suspension change. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Hopefully, others who have made the change will chime in -- I do not know of anyone who has made the "suspension upgrade" and has been disappointed.
04-22-2003, 04:34 PM
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Burning Brakes
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Jack, where did you get yours done? What kind of setup did you go with?
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04-22-2003, 05:28 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Trojan Man:
<strong>Jack, where did you get yours done? What kind of setup did you go with?
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I went with Techart coil overs and adjustable sway bars. You've got mail!
<strong>Jack, where did you get yours done? What kind of setup did you go with?
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I went with Techart coil overs and adjustable sway bars. You've got mail!
04-22-2003, 05:29 PM
#14
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by KPV:
<strong>I would be interested in learning more about this court decision. Please summarize.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">KPV,
I'll give you a brief summary of the court decision. Basically, a woman was driving on a canyon road in her then new 930 turbo. She had a passenger with her and was coming out of a corner and got into the boost and ended up losing control and sliding off the road, killing the passenger in the car. Basically an ugly court battle ended up with Porsche $4 million poorer. From then on, the snap oversteer was dialed out of the 911s suspension.
<strong>I would be interested in learning more about this court decision. Please summarize.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">KPV,
I'll give you a brief summary of the court decision. Basically, a woman was driving on a canyon road in her then new 930 turbo. She had a passenger with her and was coming out of a corner and got into the boost and ended up losing control and sliding off the road, killing the passenger in the car. Basically an ugly court battle ended up with Porsche $4 million poorer. From then on, the snap oversteer was dialed out of the 911s suspension.
04-22-2003, 06:28 PM
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I have the Ruf suspension. Highly recommend this setup. Greatly improved appearance, handling, etc. Minimal loss of comfort. Car was lowered a little more than an inch. Very careful about going up and down drives!
Steve
Steve