TTRob

Bill S., only if those sc/turbo viper guys can actually get all that power to the ground. You'd probably still beat most of them; except, maybe, from 80-100 mph and up. On a drag strip with slicks, they'd most likely have the advantage.

96VIPERGTS

ttrob,
don't be so quick to think that. With my single stage I made 563rwhp 701rwtq and could put it down in 1st gear on p-zero's with a 1.79 60ft. Now I have a dual stage with another 100 shot that is computer controlled to come in after 60 mph. Thats roughly 660rwhp at 60mph that holds just fine in warm weather...

Jim Thomas

I have owned a 99 GTS coupe. It was rude and crude. Mine handled like a pig on stilts compared to my TT. My Z06 corvettes were more fun than the viper.

Of course I am a porsche nut.

Not scientific just my .02.

HBdirtbag

yea, i'd take a 996 TT over any of them. I've driven through canyons in a viper and driven around a z06. The viper is just a no holds bar american beast. It's an animal and not tame at all. The z06 is a nice blend of both (TT and viper). I was really suprised how much I loved the z06. Still waiting to drive a 996TT Driven in a few, never driven one.

for such a hot rod guy, i'm a huge porsche nut. There is more porsche **** in my house then anything else

Jim Hodel

I've had a variety of cars over the years and currently own a Z06 and a Viper. I think that 993TTs 996TT, Z06s, and Vipers are going to be very close in overall speed on road courses, and this observation is backed up by quite a bit of track driving.

So much depends on driver skill and daring (and individual vehicle prep) that one needs to be careful about making conclusions based on a limited number track events, especially if the drivers were not running in the advanced run group.

For example, I have passed a Ferrari F40 in a Z28 - gee, I guess that means a Camaro is faster then an F40....

Vipers are not easy to drive at the limit (I'm still learning) but in experienced hands they are plenty fast.

BTW, the fast Porsches I see are more often then not modded normally aspirated Porsches not the newer turbos.

I'm sure I'd enjoy owning a turbo, however, if I was looking for a Porsche in that price range, I'd go for the new GT3.

Jim

Paolo Castellano

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Bill S.:
<strong>I've raced Vipers many times with a Ruf 993 Turbo R. With stock Vipers, when my speedo reads 180, the Vipers are usually reading 140. The last Viper I raced had about 440 RWHP (i.e., smooth tubes, free-flow exhaust, Archer engine re-build, K&N filter). From a dead start, I would be about 2 cars length ahead by 100 MPH. From a running start at 60 MPH, the Ruf would pull ahead the whole time. When I hit 180, the 440 RWHP Viper would be 15 or 20 cars lengths behind.

This behavior makes some sense with the published numbers. A Ruf Turbo R hits 150 MPH in about 15 seconds. A stock viper takes about 23 seconds.

I've never raced a supercharged or turbo Viper. These owner's don't usually care about racing. They already know, rightly so, that they can beat most modified Porsches. Porsche just can't compete with a forced-air engine that's more than double it's size.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Bill, no disrespect here or anything, but are you saying that from a dead stop drag race your RUF turbo is hitting 180 and the 440 RWHP Viper is hitting only 140? This seems a little far fetched to me. 440 RWHP/.85 = 517 flywheel Hp and usually a 440 RWHP Viper is doing 480 RWTQ = 565 flywheel TQ. The HP # is similar to the Supercars.net RUF Hp # of 520 and the torque is more for the Viper, 565 vs 546 for the Porsche. You mentioned the stock Viper 0-150 MPH #'s of 22.5 seconds. The stockers have roughly 400 RWHP and 450 RWTQ. So the one you raced actually had 50 more HP than the stocker.

I have to admit that I am a fanatical Viper guy who loves to beat up on all of the euro exotics with my Viper. BUT I have to admit the most awesome ride I have ever taken as a passenger was in a RUF Porsche Turbo @ Road America. I can say that that car with slicks(From the passenger seat, felt to have similar acceleration and cornering to my 465 RWHP/503 RWTQ 1996 GTS) But what blew me away was the brakes: They were so amazing, I could not comprehend a car could stop that fast. I found out near the end of the run that he had ABS which explained how consistently he stopped without ever locking them up. I still talk about that ride to this day!

Now back to the acceleration issue at hand: I would like to ask you how fast are you going by the standing mile? I would have to say no more than 180-183 tops. The Hennessey Venom 800 went about 193.6 MPH in the standing mile. I know the drag on the Porsche is less than the Viper above 120 for sure. I have hit 175ish in the standing mile with 465 RWHP and 503 RWTQ. I am guessing you could have been hitting 180 while the 440RWHP Viper was hitting 140 only if you were exiting a corner on a road course and were a far superior driver to the Viper pilot. That is unless, correct me if I am wrong, you have more power than the 520 HP 546 TQ RUF Turbo. If you do not, then either you are a much better driver or you have way more power. One more side note: I had a friend with a 2002 AWD TT 996 Porsche. I could spank him at will(He is a very good driver by the way)any which way with a stock 1997 GTS and with my Viper. Funny thing though, if we run from 120 MPH on up, we are dead even all the way to the top(180). So I can see how the RUF with 100 more hp that the 2002 TT can pull the Viper from 120-180, aerodynamically from 120+ but not by 40 MPH.

Bill S.

Paolo,

Thanks for the reply. The 140/180 comparison comes from several runs I've done against my own stock (smooth tubes) 2000 Viper, not the 440 RWHP one. I don't have standing mile data, but the Ruf does hit 150 MPH in about 15.3 seconds at 1957 feet from a soft launch. A stock Viper takes another 8 seconds from a "Car & Driver" launch. By that time, the Ruf is passing 180 MPH. This was confirmed several times with similar drivers using 2-way radios.

I don't know what the 440 RWHP driver's speedo was reading. I only know that when I was reading 180 on a straight, he was far behind. We were both similar drivers.

One important point: the absolute HP/TQ numbers really don't mean very much. I only mentioned it to identify the car. What's far more important is the length of time the car stays at the high point of the TQ curve during an acceleration run. The Ruf is always at the TQ curve's highest points when shifting at 6800 RPM. I don't believe the Viper is there as long with standard gear ratios, especially when shifting from 5th to 6th. Also, the Viper's Cd is higher than the Porsche. This is significant at higher speeds.

tetzlafh

Slightly goes off topic...I just have to say haven't seen it in person but heard from a good source, my NCOIC(boss), that Porsches at the Ring will man handle Vipers but when it came to the strait away the Vipers would eat up the Porsches until it was back into the turns. Today i witnessed lots of Porsches striving to keep up with an Opel Astra race car and one lonely C5 Vette struggle to not get passed by the Clio, Civic class of cars. Don't get me wrong I was getting pissed the Porsches weren't doing the job. Still incredible what they do with an opposed 6.

rmrmd1956

Bill is right on. My car dynoed 501RWHP and on a cold day my accelerometer data was slightly slower than data he posted using the same model machine. I probably had 600 CrankHP that day but the 'area under the curve' was clearly in his favor See <a href="http://www.986host.com/gallery/rmrmd1956" target="_blank">http://www.986host.com/gallery/rmrmd1956</a>
page 2.

Jim Hodel

Hi Tetzlafh, do you mean the Porsches 'manhandled' the Vipers like this?

<a href="http://www.racingcircuits.net/_series/fia-stcc/nurburgring24.html" target="_blank">http://www.racingcircuits.net/_series/fia-stcc/nurburgring24.html</a>

Jim

RWO

Lap times at Road Atlanta for a stock TT and a stock GTS are almost identical.

I owned a 99 GTS and loved it. I now own a TT and the only weakness of the GTS is the brakes. I cooked them several times on RA

I would still have the car if you could get good service; the local dealer wrecked mine...

Roy

Greg Fishman

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Jim Hodel:
<strong>Hi Tetzlafh, do you mean the Porsches 'manhandled' the Vipers like this?

<a href="http://www.racingcircuits.net/_series/fia-stcc/nurburgring24.html" target="_blank">http://www.racingcircuits.net/_series/fia-stcc/nurburgring24.html</a>Jim</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">That is an apples to oranges comparison. The GTS-R Viper is in a different class and should be considerably quicker. In the American Lemans Series they are in GTS and the Porsche is in GT.

waltk88

So much comes down to driver experience and skill. The Open Track Challenge is wrapping up this weekend. Check out the results:
<a href="http://www.opentrackchallenge.com/results/2003/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.opentrackchallenge.com/results/2003/index.htm</a>
The 996 Turbo in the T1 class is generally lapping slower than the S2000 in the T3 class. Doug Hayashi's S2000 doesn't make much more power than stock, and all the cars in the T classes are running on street tires.

Jim Hodel

Greg, I agree completely with your comment. I was just kidding around because so many people like to quote Nurburgring times (from Sport Auto I beleive) as if it were some kind of gospel.

I've driven a Viper on the track enough to be familiar with it's strengths and weaknesses, but I don't know about a newer turbo. I suspect they are plenty fast.

Jim

Greg Fishman

Jim,
Remember the Oreca Vipers? They were great race cars but it took ex-F1 drivers and 30 Chrysler engineers to get decent performance out of them.

I have instructed and driven in many Vipers and TT's and it is hard to draw comparisons, except that they are both a fast as hell. I think the TT is easier to drive fast, but a well driven Viper is tough to beat. The penalty for a mistake in the Viper is much more apparent and severe since it doesn't have any "driver aids".