Fried Chicken Fred

Looks like we have some 4 door competition.

I found this surfing the Audi forums.

<a href="http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/772372.phtml" target="_blank">11 second Audi S4</a>

LastV8

Wow. I dunno though. Even if tuned my 2002 Audi S4 down into the 11's, I don't think it could ever replace my 88 928 S4. Besides that drag racing the car wouldn't be my thing. I wonder what kind of longevity the Audi set up has. What does a stock 996TT run in the quarter?

<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Jeff C

I don't know what the auto mags say but the only 996TT I have ever seen at the drag strip ran a 12.4.

LastV8

I read a little further into the message stream. It doesn't seem like it's something that will run on pump gas.
<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

996FLT6

If you read Import tuner magazines you see 1/4 mile runs done at the 9's but how reliable they are longterm and are they still daily driver's as well. Porsche seems to offer the best balance in overall street and track and they are durable. And besides what skill is involved with drag racing- track is the ultimate test for any car IMHO. Regards. Mike

LastV8

9 second import cars though reliable for the track have engine lives measured in hours. Upon reading further into the Audi S4 message boards it seems people mod their cars and unmod them just as quickly.

As for drag racing there actually is a lot of skill involved in it. Just not all the same skills you'd bring to course racing. Maybe Jeff C will let you take his Viper to the drag strip and then you can find out for yourself that it's just as involved as any other form of racing to do well.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

LastV8

Road & Track has the GT2 timed at 12.9 seconds at 113mph. Getting the car launched took some doing and they used a driver experienced on the strip. I remember every 10th of a second being about a car length. It also stands to reason that a properly set up and driven 11.9 second capable Audi S4 would be able to run lap times with a GT2 or 996TT.

<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

Todd/A.W.E.

[quote]Originally posted by LastV8:
<strong>I read a little further into the message stream. It doesn't seem like it's something that will run on pump gas.
<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, it runs daily on pump gas. We mixed a gallon of toluene in with a half tank of 94 octane for this run. Ambient temps were high that night at the track, and we wanted a hail mary run, eeking out all the ignition advance we could in the chip.

This car is driven daily on the same GIAC chip program the we ran at the track that night, and does not require anything more than 92 octane for detonation-free performance at 21psi.

Also, this car weighs in at ~3500 lbs without driver!

LastV8

I stand corrected Todd. What kind of longevity do you expect out of the engine and/or Turbos? Is it reasonable to expect your Audi S4 to be able to turn laptimes with a GT2 or 996TT? Lastly, can the GIAC chip be hidden from the dealer computers?

Todd/A.W.E.

We expect normal service life from both the turbos and engine. This engine is quite overbuilt from the factory with forged pistons and 4 and 6 bolt mains. EGTs on our configuration are actually lower than at stock boost and configuration.

With a properly set up suspension and equal driver, this car could turn equal lap times as a GT2 or 996TT, given that the lapping session didn't last more than 5 or 6 laps. At 3500 lbs, tires start to go away quickly! That is its biggest handicap: weight.


GIAC chips are invisible to dealers, unless they check boost levels while driving. No chip that is producing more boost than stock can hide from a dealer and a scan tool.

LastV8

I guess that's why everyone says to buy that spare stock ECU?

Todd/A.W.E.

[quote]Originally posted by cjv:
<strong>Todd A.W.E.-I agree with you comments about identifying a chipped car by watching excessive boost. However, this alone is not conclusive. I have seen none modified cars showing up to 1 bar in error. </strong><hr></blockquote>

True, if there is a mechanical problem, like with the wastegate control, there can be more boost present even with a stock chip. However, excessive boost tends to be a flag for dealers, who then start looking for chips by opening ECUs (even though they are technically prohibited from doing so.)

[quote]<strong>I have to admit to knowing nothing about the Audi S4. However, knowing a little about fuel/air grids, I have some questions. If the car is mapped for every day fuel, how does simply adding "hot" fuel make it run faster (pulling the pin). Which fuel is the grids mapped for? Without an A/B switch how do you optimize both fuels? What is the octane rating of the "hot" fuel? </strong><hr></blockquote>

The chip mapping for Motronic allows a range of ignition advance. A chip optimized for, say, 93 octane, will allow a tad more ignition advance if higher octane is present. The knock sensor activity tells the ECU which map it can pick from. Excessive knock will cause the ECU to actually retard timing, while the absence of knock will allow the ECU to advance timing until knock is detected (this is happening in milliseconds). There is a tad of headroom in a 93 octane chip to allow a couple degrees of advance further with slightly higher octane present.

A chip that is tuned to, say, 100 octane will allow ignition advance even further, but will be retarding timing excessively if 93 octane is present. If the maps are pushed more towards the higher octane, audible knock can even occur.

Bottom line is that there is a "range" of ignition maps that the ECU can pick from depending on operating parameters.


[quote]<strong>If the S4 engine is so strong why will it "stay up" with the GT2 or 996tt for only 5 or 6 laps. Which leads to another question? How many miles do you consider a lap to be? Last but not least, I don't believe a GT2 or 996tt would come close to wasting their tires on any circut in 5 or 6 laps.

The above is not intended to be argumentative. I'm just trying to understand. </strong><hr></blockquote>

The engine is not the limiting factor with lap times on this particular S4. The excessive weight is. The reason that a GT2 or 996tt will not waste the tires in 5-6 "hot" laps is because those cars weigh in ~5-600 lbs less and can run much wider tires. On the S4, we can squeeze only a 245 width tire under the fenders without excessive rubbing. Not much tire for that much weight

I instruct with many car clubs, including the PCA, and when driving our other S4 with ~350hp, I cannot keep up with a twin on the straights, but I can hang resonably well for 5-6 laps on a tuned suspension and R compound tires. Our 11 second S4 is putting out ~560-570 crank hp, which is why it will run neck and neck with a twin turbo 996 until the tires start to go. The Porsches have the weight advantage, and can do those lap times for much longer.

5-6 laps is pretty much the average no matter what the course. For example, my best lap in our 350hp S4 on Pocono's North Course is a 1:02, and at Watkins Glen long course a 2:18. That's pretty competitive for a well driven street NA 996 in the clubs I run with, but on both courses the tires start to go on the S4 after 5-6 consecutive laps at that pace.

I hope that clarifies.

LastV8

Todd, thanks for answering my questions concerning chips for my Audi S4. I'll save any other questions I may have for the Audiworld board so you don't have to be challenged every two seconds on this board for statements that (I at least felt)you made clear in the first place regarding S4 capabilities.

Todd/A.W.E.

[quote]Originally posted by cjv:
<strong>Todd, thanks for the clarification. One more question, doesn't the DME on the 996tt have the capability to shut down individual cylinders if excessive knock is detected?</strong><hr></blockquote>

The Bosch ME 7.8 fuel injection system on the 996tt allows individual cylinder ignition retard.

bnl107

For anyone who is interested, my 2000 Audi S4 is for sale. Just had the updated Audi turbos installed along with a new RS4 clutch. Car has been well taken car of, always warmed up and cooled down, never raced, and Mobil full synthetic oil every 3,000 miles. Completely stock except for an APR ECU with the new 93 Octane program (315 hp).

Sanotin Blue Pearl Effect Exterior
Onxy Leather Interior
Cold-Weather Package
Convience Package

I'm asking $28,000 for it.

<a href="http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/831483.phtml" target="_blank">Click here for more info and pictures of the car.</a>