New GT3 or used 911 Turbo
04-11-2003, 02:39 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by caneaddict:
<strong>
I agree with Chris that a turbo with 10-15000 mods would beat a stock GT3. As to your comment that perhaps CJV's car MAY come close [to a stock GT3], that's going a little far. CJV's car would absolutely destroy a GT3. You don't need to do anywhere near CJV's mods to beat a stock GT3.
However all of this is moot. If you really love tracking or canyon runs then a GT3 with a few mods would be ideal. It's not just about who is fastest, it's more about the enjoyment. I think that a GT3 would probably be more fun to track than a turbo.
Disclosure: I have driven a older GT3 but never on a track.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">This is not any kind of criticism towards cjv's car. His car is a work of art. And I am sure it is faster than a stock GT3, but this is probably going to be more due to power than sheer handling. Same reason a GT2 is so fast around the Ring, according to Rohrl.
Yes, I am sure cjv's car will handle well, maybe as well or better than a GT3 if you measure it in terms of skidpad numbers or lateral grip. But it will never handle as nimbly as a GT3. It will definitely feel different. When I say it may be close to a GT3, I did not mean performance numbers per se, I meant the way the car behaves around turns, chicanes, esses, etc. Think about it, it's heavier and more importantly, it's AWD. It's a different car, whether you like to admit it or not.
Now if you modify a GT3 and trim its weight, that's another story. I am not so sure that cjv's car will be able to run faster lap times than a GT3R or RS around most tracks outside of the straightaway sections. Or maybe it can, who knows?
For example, wilber's car is extraordinarily fast and will destroy a GT3 in the straights, but I think a GT3 could beat it around a tight track or curvy roads even with its H&R coilover system. But see that's the thing, his Turbo was meant to be an Autobahn stormer... his car hits 200 like most cars hit 80. I don't think anyone on this board with $10-15k worth of mods on their 996TT will even have a prayer catching wilber in a drag race. If you don't believe me, just ask the FVD Stage 3 poster boy car from By Design with 540hp, who got smoked by over 10 car lengths in less than a quarter mile.
For its purpose, his Turbo does what it is supposed to do extraordinarily well, and it turns great too. But it is not for the same purpose as a GT3.
I don't know why it's so hard for Turbo owners to admit that it is not meant to be a track car out of the showroom. It is a GT, and it does it better than almost any other car.
<strong>
I agree with Chris that a turbo with 10-15000 mods would beat a stock GT3. As to your comment that perhaps CJV's car MAY come close [to a stock GT3], that's going a little far. CJV's car would absolutely destroy a GT3. You don't need to do anywhere near CJV's mods to beat a stock GT3.
However all of this is moot. If you really love tracking or canyon runs then a GT3 with a few mods would be ideal. It's not just about who is fastest, it's more about the enjoyment. I think that a GT3 would probably be more fun to track than a turbo.
Disclosure: I have driven a older GT3 but never on a track.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">This is not any kind of criticism towards cjv's car. His car is a work of art. And I am sure it is faster than a stock GT3, but this is probably going to be more due to power than sheer handling. Same reason a GT2 is so fast around the Ring, according to Rohrl.
Yes, I am sure cjv's car will handle well, maybe as well or better than a GT3 if you measure it in terms of skidpad numbers or lateral grip. But it will never handle as nimbly as a GT3. It will definitely feel different. When I say it may be close to a GT3, I did not mean performance numbers per se, I meant the way the car behaves around turns, chicanes, esses, etc. Think about it, it's heavier and more importantly, it's AWD. It's a different car, whether you like to admit it or not.
Now if you modify a GT3 and trim its weight, that's another story. I am not so sure that cjv's car will be able to run faster lap times than a GT3R or RS around most tracks outside of the straightaway sections. Or maybe it can, who knows?
For example, wilber's car is extraordinarily fast and will destroy a GT3 in the straights, but I think a GT3 could beat it around a tight track or curvy roads even with its H&R coilover system. But see that's the thing, his Turbo was meant to be an Autobahn stormer... his car hits 200 like most cars hit 80. I don't think anyone on this board with $10-15k worth of mods on their 996TT will even have a prayer catching wilber in a drag race. If you don't believe me, just ask the FVD Stage 3 poster boy car from By Design with 540hp, who got smoked by over 10 car lengths in less than a quarter mile.
For its purpose, his Turbo does what it is supposed to do extraordinarily well, and it turns great too. But it is not for the same purpose as a GT3.
I don't know why it's so hard for Turbo owners to admit that it is not meant to be a track car out of the showroom. It is a GT, and it does it better than almost any other car.
04-11-2003, 03:05 AM
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Hamann - why don't you get a 1700 lb Lotus Elise now that the US EPA certified for the street version has the 8000 rpm Honda VTec motor instead of the euro Rover motor that was never EPA certifiable ? . It goes to 60 ( 4-4.5 secs ) faster than a 70 % more expensive GT3 and will whip it on the windy LA canyons you guys " race" on where Autobahn top speed or 'Ring times mean nothing . The GT3 is a whale compared to it. Heck, how " basic" is a 3000 lb car with -geez- power steering ? You did say a canyon blaster was what you wanted , right? However it's still 10-15 months away but dealers are taking deposits . The current " euro" Elise in the US can only be track driven , hence it's small sales numbers in the past 7 years .
04-11-2003, 03:18 AM
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Since the mid-seventies, the pure racecar Porsches have been all about turbocharging. I can't think of a single normally aspirated non street-based Porsche racecar in the last 25 years.
04-11-2003, 10:41 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Hamann7:
<strong>
I don't know why it's so hard for Turbo owners to admit that it is not meant to be a track car out of the showroom. It is a GT, and it does it better than almost any other car.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">And most of us dont know why you dont admit the street GT3 is also not meant to be a track car out of the showroom. Real track cars dont come from showrooms anyway.
If you want me to redefine light and nimble, come take a ride in the RSR. Dont hand me a line of crap about the 3050 lb GT3 being light an nimble.
<strong>
I don't know why it's so hard for Turbo owners to admit that it is not meant to be a track car out of the showroom. It is a GT, and it does it better than almost any other car.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">And most of us dont know why you dont admit the street GT3 is also not meant to be a track car out of the showroom. Real track cars dont come from showrooms anyway.
If you want me to redefine light and nimble, come take a ride in the RSR. Dont hand me a line of crap about the 3050 lb GT3 being light an nimble.
04-11-2003, 12:05 PM
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Interesting thread...
FYI, a Cup car, with a Pro driver (Jack Lewis) runs 1.29s at Road Atlanta (same car qualified on pole with David Murry driving at Daytona in 2002).
A stock TT, with Murry driving, did a 1.39 at Road Atlanta. A GT2, on the same day, did a 1.38.
You are going to have to do a lot more than suspension and minor engine mods to cut 10 seconds off a TT time.
The old cup car (360hp) did a 7.49 at Nuerburgring vs a 7.56 for the TT. That course is not like most tracks, it's big and favors high hp cars.
On Hockenheim, the old cup did a 1,09.1 vs a 1,14.6 for the TT.
If you are a "few seconds" behind a cup car, either my definition of a few seconds is different than yours or you are following a older Cup car being driven poorly imo.
That being said, I think stock to stock, it will come down to the driver (street GT3 vs. TT).
Roy
ps. Source - Jack Lewis for his time. Panorama for the TT/GT2 Times, <a href="http://www.track-challenge.com" target="_blank">www.track-challenge.com</a> for the other times. Final note, the winning PCA club racer ran a 1.32 in his stock 360hp GT3 Cup. I have not seen lap times for the new 390hp GT3 Cup yet.
FYI, a Cup car, with a Pro driver (Jack Lewis) runs 1.29s at Road Atlanta (same car qualified on pole with David Murry driving at Daytona in 2002).
A stock TT, with Murry driving, did a 1.39 at Road Atlanta. A GT2, on the same day, did a 1.38.
You are going to have to do a lot more than suspension and minor engine mods to cut 10 seconds off a TT time.
The old cup car (360hp) did a 7.49 at Nuerburgring vs a 7.56 for the TT. That course is not like most tracks, it's big and favors high hp cars.
On Hockenheim, the old cup did a 1,09.1 vs a 1,14.6 for the TT.
If you are a "few seconds" behind a cup car, either my definition of a few seconds is different than yours or you are following a older Cup car being driven poorly imo.
That being said, I think stock to stock, it will come down to the driver (street GT3 vs. TT).
Roy
ps. Source - Jack Lewis for his time. Panorama for the TT/GT2 Times, <a href="http://www.track-challenge.com" target="_blank">www.track-challenge.com</a> for the other times. Final note, the winning PCA club racer ran a 1.32 in his stock 360hp GT3 Cup. I have not seen lap times for the new 390hp GT3 Cup yet.
04-11-2003, 12:05 PM
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lower gears sets are available from P motorsports for the gt3 perkins told me yesterday. i plan a 150 mph redline [8200 rpm] in 6th gear in my gt3. i bet w/ lower 1,2 , 3,4 i'll get stick TT or better acceleration w/ much better throttle response.
i chose a gt3 rather than lightweighting a TT [see our previous chat on that] for the throttle response. the one time i had my gt2 sideways i believe was lag. hard 2nd gear acceleration out of a corner and the very slightly delayed hit got me... the lag is still there but faint compared to 1979. the TT hides it in safety PSM stuff
as this entire discussion is discretionary on choice driven by individual taste, let's play nice.
i chose a gt3 rather than lightweighting a TT [see our previous chat on that] for the throttle response. the one time i had my gt2 sideways i believe was lag. hard 2nd gear acceleration out of a corner and the very slightly delayed hit got me... the lag is still there but faint compared to 1979. the TT hides it in safety PSM stuff
as this entire discussion is discretionary on choice driven by individual taste, let's play nice.
04-11-2003, 01:44 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by RWO:
<strong>FYI, a Cup car, with a Pro driver (Jack Lewis) runs 1.29s at Road Atlanta (same car qualified on pole with David Murry driving at Daytona in 2002).
A stock TT, with Murry driving, did a 1.39 at Road Atlanta. A GT2, on the same day, did a 1.38.
You are going to have to do a lot more than suspension and minor engine mods to cut 10 seconds off a TT time.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Where all three cars on slicks? Or just the Cup car? If they weren't on the same tires then you are not making a valid comparison. Tires along could easily make a 5-8 second difference at Road Atlanta.
<strong>FYI, a Cup car, with a Pro driver (Jack Lewis) runs 1.29s at Road Atlanta (same car qualified on pole with David Murry driving at Daytona in 2002).
A stock TT, with Murry driving, did a 1.39 at Road Atlanta. A GT2, on the same day, did a 1.38.
You are going to have to do a lot more than suspension and minor engine mods to cut 10 seconds off a TT time.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Where all three cars on slicks? Or just the Cup car? If they weren't on the same tires then you are not making a valid comparison. Tires along could easily make a 5-8 second difference at Road Atlanta.
04-11-2003, 01:50 PM
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The cups were on slicks (as they come). Do you have any data to back up a 5-8 second improvement only changing to slicks? I have not seen data to support that. In addition, when I changed from street tires (Yoko 038s) to slicks (Yoko slicks) on my Exige the delta was nowhere near that.
Roy
Roy
04-11-2003, 02:29 PM
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My comment on the 996TT being a few seconds off the Cup car was based upon both having Hoosier DOT slicks. The difference (or, excuse me, "delta") at Road Atlanta is huge betwen say Pirelli competition slicks, Hoosiers, and regular DOT rubber.
A 996 with Pirelli slicks is 2-3 seconds faster at Road Atlanta than one with Hoosiers. Hossiers would be 5-6 seconds faster than STreet tires.
On your Exige it may not be as pronounced due to alignment settings, downforce, or weight.
A 996 with Pirelli slicks is 2-3 seconds faster at Road Atlanta than one with Hoosiers. Hossiers would be 5-6 seconds faster than STreet tires.
On your Exige it may not be as pronounced due to alignment settings, downforce, or weight.
04-11-2003, 02:50 PM
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it seems that this thread lose control.
fact is.
the 996TT is faster than the GT3 at the "ring " BUT with a pro driver
the GT2 ist faster than both
the cup GT3 is faster than the Gt2 the Gt3 and the 996 TT
and a tuned 996TT but with no AWD and to much power is faster than all other previus cars.
alles klar? or just confused;-)
Konstantin
BTW it is the driver and not the car that is fast on the track. At the Autobahn a Turbo will smoke a GT3. On the track "may" be different but this depend on the driver and not on the car. Do not mix the Gt3 CUP car this si something different an da TT with a turbo suspension can be MUCH faster
fact is.
the 996TT is faster than the GT3 at the "ring " BUT with a pro driver
the GT2 ist faster than both
the cup GT3 is faster than the Gt2 the Gt3 and the 996 TT
and a tuned 996TT but with no AWD and to much power is faster than all other previus cars.
alles klar? or just confused;-)
Konstantin
BTW it is the driver and not the car that is fast on the track. At the Autobahn a Turbo will smoke a GT3. On the track "may" be different but this depend on the driver and not on the car. Do not mix the Gt3 CUP car this si something different an da TT with a turbo suspension can be MUCH faster
04-11-2003, 03:43 PM
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Chris,
Hmm, interesting.
I’m not trying to be argumentative here but it will sound that way. I love doing track days, have done a bunch, in both P cars and non P cars. It is very hard for me to believe that a TT can run anywhere near a cup car. Let me explain my thoughts.
A stock, older, Cup car has 360 hp and weighs 2513lbs; that’s a power to weight of 7.0. The current Cup cars have a PTW of 6.4.
A TT, has 415hp and weighs 3,400lbs (being kind); that’s a PTW of 8.2.
Based on my simple example, a cup car should be able to outrun a TT in a straight line, no?
(we are not even considering that a cup car has shorter gearing (than a TT) that will help in acceleration considerably)
If David Murry runs 1.39’s at Road Atlanta then we will use that as the starting point for a pro driver. Using your examples of slick time improvement, that puts a TT in the 1.30 to 1.32 range.
Frankly, that’s just impossible for me to believe. I just cannot figure out how a 25 to 55 delta in HP will make up for almost 900lbs.
I have done a few events at RA with a SCCA pro drive who runs a TT with slicks and the suspension adjusted for track use. I’ll ask him what kind of lap times he runs. He is the only TT that leaves me for dead out there
Roy
Hmm, interesting.
I’m not trying to be argumentative here but it will sound that way. I love doing track days, have done a bunch, in both P cars and non P cars. It is very hard for me to believe that a TT can run anywhere near a cup car. Let me explain my thoughts.
A stock, older, Cup car has 360 hp and weighs 2513lbs; that’s a power to weight of 7.0. The current Cup cars have a PTW of 6.4.
A TT, has 415hp and weighs 3,400lbs (being kind); that’s a PTW of 8.2.
Based on my simple example, a cup car should be able to outrun a TT in a straight line, no?
(we are not even considering that a cup car has shorter gearing (than a TT) that will help in acceleration considerably)
If David Murry runs 1.39’s at Road Atlanta then we will use that as the starting point for a pro driver. Using your examples of slick time improvement, that puts a TT in the 1.30 to 1.32 range.
Frankly, that’s just impossible for me to believe. I just cannot figure out how a 25 to 55 delta in HP will make up for almost 900lbs.
I have done a few events at RA with a SCCA pro drive who runs a TT with slicks and the suspension adjusted for track use. I’ll ask him what kind of lap times he runs. He is the only TT that leaves me for dead out there
Roy
04-11-2003, 03:58 PM
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Konstantin,
Wasn't it just established that the 360bhp GT3 and the 420bhp 996TT run the "Ring" with the same times? I don't believe at this time there are any "official" times for the new 381bhp GT3, or the TT X50.
Wasn't it just established that the 360bhp GT3 and the 420bhp 996TT run the "Ring" with the same times? I don't believe at this time there are any "official" times for the new 381bhp GT3, or the TT X50.
04-11-2003, 04:11 PM
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the 996 TT was a couple sec faster (3 sec I think) but this was with Röhl on the steering wheel.
with other drivers the match looks different. The AWD, PSM and all this "crap" helps a lot if you are not very experienced.
I heard of no oficial times for the X50 or the new Gt3 I expect another 4-5 sec for the new Gt3. most because of the better brakes and better wing and not of the 20+ HP
Konstantin
with other drivers the match looks different. The AWD, PSM and all this "crap" helps a lot if you are not very experienced.
I heard of no oficial times for the X50 or the new Gt3 I expect another 4-5 sec for the new Gt3. most because of the better brakes and better wing and not of the 20+ HP
Konstantin
04-11-2003, 04:33 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by RWO:
<strong>The cups were on slicks (as they come). Do you have any data to back up a 5-8 second improvement only changing to slicks? I have not seen data to support that. In addition, when I changed from street tires (Yoko 038s) to slicks (Yoko slicks) on my Exige the delta was nowhere near that.
Roy</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yoko 038's are R compounds right? I mean going from "normal" street tires to race slicks.
I have a well prepped, 2800lb, 993 NA car that I race and I get around Road Atlanta at 1:40 or so. A friend who is a better driver beat my time by another second or more in a similar car. I can guarantee that a well driven (not pro driver) in a 996TT with a good suspension and similar tires would beat this time by several seconds.
I don't think anyone here said a 996TT would be faster than a Cup car, a modified one might have some speed down the straight, but no way would the lap times be better. Cup Cars that are well driven would be in the 1:32-34 range.
And I think the car you are talking about that Jack Lewis drove was not a Cup car but a GT3RS. There is a big difference between the two. A GT3RS should get around R.Atlanta in the 1:27-29 range. I think Kevin Buckler this weekend qualified in the 1:28 range.
<strong>The cups were on slicks (as they come). Do you have any data to back up a 5-8 second improvement only changing to slicks? I have not seen data to support that. In addition, when I changed from street tires (Yoko 038s) to slicks (Yoko slicks) on my Exige the delta was nowhere near that.
Roy</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yoko 038's are R compounds right? I mean going from "normal" street tires to race slicks.
I have a well prepped, 2800lb, 993 NA car that I race and I get around Road Atlanta at 1:40 or so. A friend who is a better driver beat my time by another second or more in a similar car. I can guarantee that a well driven (not pro driver) in a 996TT with a good suspension and similar tires would beat this time by several seconds.
I don't think anyone here said a 996TT would be faster than a Cup car, a modified one might have some speed down the straight, but no way would the lap times be better. Cup Cars that are well driven would be in the 1:32-34 range.
And I think the car you are talking about that Jack Lewis drove was not a Cup car but a GT3RS. There is a big difference between the two. A GT3RS should get around R.Atlanta in the 1:27-29 range. I think Kevin Buckler this weekend qualified in the 1:28 range.
04-11-2003, 06:03 PM
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Greg,
Good points. I appreceate your perspective. I'd love to see a test someday. I have always wanted to see a side by side compairison of street vs slicks vs other OEM slicks on the same car.
btw, Jack's car is a Cup car that has some upgrades. He runs some RS motor upgrades and has gone to the electric power steering pump etc. I looked at the car (to buy) last year and he had done some good things to it.
I think you are right, I heard that Buckler ran a 1,27.x last weekend, that's hauling!
I run in the low 1,40s now, I'm looking for the high 1,39s with the upgrades I'm doing now. Someday I'll learn how to drive but for now upgrading is more fun
Roy
Good points. I appreceate your perspective. I'd love to see a test someday. I have always wanted to see a side by side compairison of street vs slicks vs other OEM slicks on the same car.
btw, Jack's car is a Cup car that has some upgrades. He runs some RS motor upgrades and has gone to the electric power steering pump etc. I looked at the car (to buy) last year and he had done some good things to it.
I think you are right, I heard that Buckler ran a 1,27.x last weekend, that's hauling!
I run in the low 1,40s now, I'm looking for the high 1,39s with the upgrades I'm doing now. Someday I'll learn how to drive but for now upgrading is more fun
Roy