</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Chris Brown:
<strong>
For what you will spend on a new GT3 ($105 out the door if you are lucky), you could have a 996TT which would no only be faster around the track than a GT3 street car but also a GT3 cup car. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I am not sure how well you know the Gt3 cup cars but I can tell you that there is no way that you can pass a cup car with a 996 TT.
do not forget that on a race car first of all you have to reduce the weight and AFTER that to add power.
you need about 540 HP on a stock turbo to much the weight ratio of a good cup car and even if you have this kind of Power you will lose on braking since you cary about 390 kg more in every corner.
after that the suspension on both cras can not be compared. You need Many $$$ to make a TT to handle like a cup car and I am not even sure if this is possible under $20000.
you can even upgarde the suspension from the cup car to a GT3 RS and then you can forget even the GT2.

If you wnat a street car the Turbo is MUCH better but you can not compera them on teh track unless you reduce the weight by at least 400 kg, upgrade the brakes to the GT2 brakes and put a new race suspension. By this time you spend some serius money and it would be cheaper to buy a plain 996 for tezh street and a cup car for the track.
This is more fun and this is what everybody doing, who is serious about track time.

Konstantin

 

Konstantin:

Clearly you have more technical knowledge than I do. However, do you really not think that for $20K you could turn a 996TT into a superior track car?

Removal of 400KG would be tough, but 200KG would be doable. The suspension would require the most $$$, and easily $10K for a good set of triple adjustables to compete. On the brakes, I disagree, the 4 piston prakes on the 996TT are more than adequate for a Cup Car or 996TT so upgrading (short of ceramic or aftermarket) would do no good.

I know that lightweight = fast. Thats why I have an early 70's 911. Its also a big reason a 993RSR is faster than a GT3 cup despite being about equal on power and torque.

Thanks

 

Ummm... I have track days under my belt.

If the Turbo with its AWD and PSM was such a superior platform for the track, why did Porsche make a GT2?

Also, unless I am mistaken, the new Cup car brakes are not the same as on a 996TT.

If you think the stock 4 piston brakes on a TT are good enough for heavy track use, I don't think you're driving fast enough. Do you think it's just gratuitous that the GT3-R uses 380mm brakes?

If you want to compare a GT3 on the track with your $1500 chip and $1500 exhaust, I would gladly take the challenge any day. Again, if it was that cheap to upgrade a Turbo to 500+ hp, why does Ruf get $17K for its 520hp package. Even FVD's program costs more than that. A high quality exhaust for a Turbo, i.e. Ruf, Europipe, Cargraphic, are all well over $3500.

What type of muffler are you thinking of, UltraFlo or MagnaFlow? Borla?

What kind of chip are you talking about, some generic GIAC program?

And you think a simple $3500 suspension like the H&R coilovers or the Bilstein PSS-9 (whenever that comes out) makes the TT handle better than a GT3?

I don't think it's ME who has bought into the marketing hype...

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Hamann7:

And you think a simple $3500 suspension like the H&R coilovers or the Bilstein PSS-9 (whenever that comes out) makes the TT handle better than a GT3?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">How does the stock GT3 suspension differ from a coilover system like the ones you mention?

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Hamann7:
<strong>Ummm... I have track days under my belt.

If the Turbo with its AWD and PSM was such a superior platform for the track, why did Porsche make a GT2?

To wring more profit out of an aging product line. You are ignorant if you think (with all other things equal) AWD is not an advantage at the track. PSM and any form of advanced traction control is also an advantage, as long as it is tuned for track use, which the 996TT PSM is not.

Also, unless I am mistaken, the new Cup car brakes are not the same as on a 996TT.

The Cup Car brakes from 98 - 2001 were essentially the same. In 02 they went to larger 6 piston brakes. Many drivers quickly found that this simply added more weight to an already over-braked race car and have retrofitted older 4 piston brakes.

If you think the stock 4 piston brakes on a TT are good enough for heavy track use, I don't think you're driving fast enough. Do you think it's just gratuitous that the GT3-R uses 380mm brakes?

A GT3R is in a different league than a 996 Cup Car. No, its not gratuitous. But if you think most race teams leave the factory brake setup without switching to a lighter weight rotor/hat setup, you are wrong.

If you want to compare a GT3 on the track with your $1500 chip and $1500 exhaust, I would gladly take the challenge any day. Again, if it was that cheap to upgrade a Turbo to 500+ hp, why does Ruf get $17K for its 520hp package. Even FVD's program costs more than that. A high quality exhaust for a Turbo, i.e. Ruf, Europipe, Cargraphic, are all well over $3500.

It is so easy to get 500 fairly reliable HP from a 996TT. Other more knowledgeable people than me can confirm this. There are quality exhaust systems for under $3500.

What type of muffler are you thinking of, UltraFlo or MagnaFlow? Borla?

I didn't mention anything about a muffler. Pay attention.

What kind of chip are you talking about, some generic GIAC program?

No.

And you think a simple $3500 suspension like the H&R coilovers or the Bilstein PSS-9 (whenever that comes out) makes the TT handle better than a GT3?

I already have the Pss9 on my 996TT. They are not the type to do the trick. But H&R or JRZ would do just fine with proper spring rates.

I don't think it's ME who has bought into the marketing hype...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Listen, I'm not going to argue with you anymore. I will be at Mid Ohio the first weekend in May, Watkins Glen over July 4th weekend, Viper Days at VIR later in July, Summit Point in August, VIR again in September, Carolinas Motorsport Park in October, and VIR again 2 times in November and December. Looks like you have plenty of opportunity to come run.

Or maybe next year meet somewhere in the middle since you are on the west coast.

 

Seriously, which of the following models, 996 TT, GT2, or GT3 has absolute race Porsche legacy? If you desire a Porsche, there is only one...GT3.

 

Anyone consider the RUF RGT? After driving my early turbo car on the track, I would have to agree that any decent powered N/A car is a better track car due to its less weight and more linear power...all things being equal.

 

I certainly cant see buying a RUF RGT over what will now be a US version GT3. Lots more money and no tangible benefit on the track.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by sawmilldriver:
<strong>How does the stock GT3 suspension differ from a coilover system like the ones you mention?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Well let's see, besides just being able to adjust ride height, you can also adjust camber, toe-in, and anti-roll bars. This is off the stock suspension. Of course, you can always swap in GT3R/RS parts which would only make it even more suited for competition use.

My point is that due to the weight difference and RWD, it would take a lot of $$$ to make a TT handle like a GT3.

Perhaps cjv's car may come close, but only time will tell when it is tested against the best.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Geoffrey:
<strong>Anyone consider the RUF RGT? After driving my early turbo car on the track, I would have to agree that any decent powered N/A car is a better track car due to its less weight and more linear power...all things being equal.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Geoffrey, the RGT was designed for the U.S. and the other few markets where the GT3 was unavailable. Ruf decided to tweak the GT3 motor by 20hp or so and create their own GT3.

Unfortunately, I think it is discontinued at the present time. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they come out with their own version of the revised GT3.

 

Chris,

Come out to the west coast, we have better weather and scenery out here. I am sure there are many Porsche owners that would love to take a hack at your TT.

You must obviously know something that the rest of the world doesn't.

Mufflers are part of the exhaust system, last time I checked. So which great, phenomenal, power producing exhaust system can be had for $1500? This must be a secret, because no one else seemed to mention it.

AWD is only an advantage on the track for less than skillful or average drivers. Yes, it is a great safety net, but don't give us the line of BS that it's superior for the track. Geez, I guess Porsche forgot to include it on the Carrera GT, I suppose. If AWD was so great, F1 and other top forms of racing would be using it.

Please tell me what AWD car has beaten the GT2's time on the 'Ring of 7:46.

In case you didn't know, even the Gemballa GTR750, which holds the current record for a streetable car at 7:32, is BASED ON A GT3. That's right, RWD.

Regarding PSM, you have got to be kidding... an advantage on the track? Is that why most people turn it off on the track? Is that why pro drivers testing PSM were 1 second slower on a short track than without?

Regarding the 500hp upgrade, you seem to forget that this really doesn't mean ****. It's the power curve, and the area under the curve that counts. Peak horsepower only tells a very small fraction of the story. Tell us what kind of performance numbers you are getting with this miracle $10K upgrade. I guess R Turbo owners are stupid to be paying $17K for a bolt on upgrade for only 20hp more.

Regarding traction control, this is only a necessity if you are running a LOT of power and torque, like the Carrera GT, which even scared Walter Rohrl. It was under his recommendation that they fitted traction control for SAFETY, not PERFORMANCE reasons.

I think you have AWD, PSM, and traction control all sorta lumped together.

Well, I can't wait to see you drive. You must obviously be Michael Schumacher or something with AWD and PSM, since even Walter Rohrl likes the GT3 over even the GT2, let alone the Turbo.

Come out to the west coast, I and others would love to come out and play and show you the error of your ways.

 

I would put a supercharger kit on the Z06, talk about major whup ***, and buy a tt for the street.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Hamann7:
<strong>Chris,

Come out to the west coast, we have better weather and scenery out here. I am sure there are many Porsche owners that would love to take a hack at your TT.

You must obviously know something that the rest of the world doesn't.

Mufflers are part of the exhaust system, last time I checked. So which great, phenomenal, power producing exhaust system can be had for $1500? This must be a secret, because no one else seemed to mention it.

AWD is only an advantage on the track for less than skillful or average drivers. Yes, it is a great safety net, but don't give us the line of BS that it's superior for the track. Geez, I guess Porsche forgot to include it on the Carrera GT, I suppose. If AWD was so great, F1 and other top forms of racing would be using it.

Please tell me what AWD car has beaten the GT2's time on the 'Ring of 7:46.

In case you didn't know, even the Gemballa GTR750, which holds the current record for a streetable car at 7:32, is BASED ON A GT3. That's right, RWD.

Regarding PSM, you have got to be kidding... an advantage on the track? Is that why most people turn it off on the track? Is that why pro drivers testing PSM were 1 second slower on a short track than without?

Regarding the 500hp upgrade, you seem to forget that this really doesn't mean ****. It's the power curve, and the area under the curve that counts. Peak horsepower only tells a very small fraction of the story. Tell us what kind of performance numbers you are getting with this miracle $10K upgrade. I guess R Turbo owners are stupid to be paying $17K for a bolt on upgrade for only 20hp more.

Regarding traction control, this is only a necessity if you are running a LOT of power and torque, like the Carrera GT, which even scared Walter Rohrl. It was under his recommendation that they fitted traction control for SAFETY, not PERFORMANCE reasons.

I think you have AWD, PSM, and traction control all sorta lumped together.

Well, I can't wait to see you drive. You must obviously be Michael Schumacher or something with AWD and PSM, since even Walter Rohrl likes the GT3 over even the GT2, let alone the Turbo.

Come out to the west coast, I and others would love to come out and play and show you the error of your ways.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Well, we found something to agree upon, thats the scenery in Malibu. Beyond that, despite my last post, I just cant resisit taking a few more cracks. Kind of like watching a deer walk right under your tree stand.

A muffler is an optional part of an ehxaust system. It is a heavy part of an exhaust system. It is also expensive to fabricate and not utilized by many race cars. My exhaust system was fabricated by a someone in Virginia for $1500. I think they are a bit more now. It has no cat or muffler. The main reason I mention this mod is that it is a huge weight savings AND reduces backpressure.

Your comment about AWD not being better for the track only highlights your extreme ignorance of vehicle dynamics. AWD is superior to RWD or FWD, thats why IT IS BANNED IN MANY FORMS OF ROAD RACING because represents an unfair competitive advantage. Name a competitive auto racing series which allows AWD which does not also penalize the hell out of the AWD participant by adding weight or taking away power.

Regarding PSM, no I am not kidding. Thats why I said a PROPERLY TUNED PSM would be faster around the track, but NOT the one as configured in any street legal car. Any system which has the ability to apply braking pressure to only one wheel will allow the vehicle to do things which would otherwise be impossible. If Stability Management software were of no advantage, why do so many sanctioning bodies outlaw its usage?

Regarding TC, THIS IS A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE ALSO. Or, maybe you know of a driver who can modulate the throttle one hundred times per second? Or, better yet, maybe you have found a car which goes faster with the rear tires slipping rather than not slipping? TC is allowed in F1. Gee whiz, why do all of the F1 cars have TC? I guess all of the F1 teams are concerned about "saftey". Or maybe the drivers arent skilled enough. OR MAYBE BECAUSE THE BEST DRIVERS IN THE WORLD CANT MODULATE THE THROTTLE AS WELL AS A COMPUTER, AND MAYBE BECAUSE LOSS OF TRACTION IS LESS FAVORABLE THAN NOT LOSING TRACTION.

Regarding the "500HP" upgrade - I am the one who mentioned torque, and not HP, as an important measurement. A 996TT has a much broader torque curve than a GT3. You are right, its not about peak HP, but about the "shaded area under the torque curve." Clear advantage to the TT.

Now, I have told you where and when I'll be at the track. Please return the favor. If you can't make the trip, I am sure someone on the east coast with a GT3, someone who is a better driver than me, would be willing to throw on some Hoosiers and come to one of the track events. Or I may decide to come out west, take some good in car video, and let the Rennlist board members decide which car is more suited to the track.

Any speculation from the Rennlist crowd on the results, that is a stock 04 GT3 and a slightly modified 01TT (total investment well under the GT3)? Both allowed to run aftermarket pads and Hoosier DOT slicks?

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Hamann7:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by sawmilldriver:
<strong>How does the stock GT3 suspension differ from a coilover system like the ones you mention?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Well let's see, besides just being able to adjust ride height, you can also adjust camber, toe-in, and anti-roll bars. This is off the stock suspension. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">These are all adjustments you can make from a coil-over setup from Bilstein or H&R. You could also just get the GT2 suspension and put it on a TT.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Hamann7:
<strong>
AWD is only an advantage on the track for less than skillful or average drivers. Yes, it is a great safety net, but don't give us the line of BS that it's superior for the track. </strong>
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">It is no BS. AWD is superior on the track, if your car has the right set up. You can get the power down earlier and harder which means that for the same hp cars you will be going faster at the end of the straight. I have a friend in an identically prepared 993 (except for AWD) and in some turns he can get on the throttle much earlier than I can. We are similar drivers and our lap times are within tenths of each other, usually.