New transmission needed on 2003 X50: Porsche refusing to cover under warranty
02-08-2006, 10:16 AM
#151
Rennlist Member
More fuel:
Go to the CGT board, and look at the last post from Icon (Jeff) on the thread "This is how you drive a CGT)with the link to Hurley Haywood in a CGT.
Hurley talks about the philosophy of Porsche "that has never changed". All kinds of quotes about taking the car to the track, then home with the ac on.
Do we think the track policy extends to the CGT? If the CGT warranty is void due to track use, I don't know how anybody could buy one and learn to drive it.
Hurley must also be in the dark on this one. Since PCNA seems to stand behind the cars he drives, he must not know that they won't do that for paying customers.
When PCNA is providing a CGT and their lead driver (Hurley heads the Porsche Driving Experience), it's hard not to conclude that they are promoting track use for their cars. When Hurley says that this is how all porsches are built (for street and track use), that is direct marketing. He is a spokesperson for the company.
The current posture is a breach of trust if not a breach of contract.
I'll leave it for the law grads to argue the law. I don't see much wiggle room on the legitmacy of feeling cheated by the new policy. AS
Go to the CGT board, and look at the last post from Icon (Jeff) on the thread "This is how you drive a CGT)with the link to Hurley Haywood in a CGT.
Hurley talks about the philosophy of Porsche "that has never changed". All kinds of quotes about taking the car to the track, then home with the ac on.
Do we think the track policy extends to the CGT? If the CGT warranty is void due to track use, I don't know how anybody could buy one and learn to drive it.
Hurley must also be in the dark on this one. Since PCNA seems to stand behind the cars he drives, he must not know that they won't do that for paying customers.
When PCNA is providing a CGT and their lead driver (Hurley heads the Porsche Driving Experience), it's hard not to conclude that they are promoting track use for their cars. When Hurley says that this is how all porsches are built (for street and track use), that is direct marketing. He is a spokesperson for the company.
The current posture is a breach of trust if not a breach of contract.
I'll leave it for the law grads to argue the law. I don't see much wiggle room on the legitmacy of feeling cheated by the new policy. AS
02-08-2006, 11:16 AM
#152
Race Director
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: KC ex pat marooned in NY
Posts: 13,005
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes
on
17 Posts
When I was at the PDE, Hurley, among others clearly stated that Porsche wanted you to enjoy your cars( and understand what they are capable of out of the box) and hoped that the PDE experience would get you out to the track with your local PCA and make you an even better track driver. There was no interpretation issue, this point was made crystal clear by the entire PDE staff.
02-08-2006, 12:00 PM
#153
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
ouch! I hope Hurley Doc Bundy et al don't get a wrist slap or worse for expressing the philosophy that Alex, me and others claim to be how Porsche USED TO BE. It seems fairly obvious that in North America the only place you can drive a Porsche anywhere near its potential is on a track. No autobahns here.
02-08-2006, 12:19 PM
#154
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,802
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the that this topic has left the track and gone off on a tangent (pun intented).
The real issue (as I see it) as follows:
Fact:
The transmission was damaged.
Let's assume for discussion purposes, that is was due to abuse. The question then becomes would Porsche have fixed it, even if the car had not been tracked. I suspect not, and that's why I think this "tracking" issue with regard to this particular situation is a "red herring".
Why not?. Because the warranty doesn't cover abuse, and the damage shown could only occur under abusive conditions. Therefore the application of the warranty policy would appear to be consistent and the tracking issue is really irrelevant
There may be other reasons or circumstances as to what causes the abuse, but these, at the moment, are unknowable, or would just be speculation. The problem with buying "used" cars is that you really don't know how the car has been treated.
With respect to tracking, there are two issues 1.) being on the track, having fun and driving moderately fast (just like they do at PDE) and then there is 2) "tracking" whereby it's a "***** to the wall" approach (few capable), or an "overdriving" (many do) of the car. I think we are mature enough to know which is which, and the problems occur when some try to be "cute" and substitute the latter for the former, and expect warranty coverage. This behaviour may cause Porsche and it's Dealers to a little more careful on some claims, ceramics for instance. But overall, it seems on that issue thay made accomodations where appropriate.
It is my impression that "moderate" driving on the track (as opposed to tracking) will not cause the user any loss, or warranty nightmares. I trust that Porsche has the experience to tell the difference in types of usage, based upon the wear and tear on the various components versus the mileage.
For the record, having owned many cars, I have found Porsche to be most responsive and sympathetic (and will continue to own Porsches until it changes), and no I don't work for them or speak for them.
The real issue (as I see it) as follows:
Fact:
The transmission was damaged.
Let's assume for discussion purposes, that is was due to abuse. The question then becomes would Porsche have fixed it, even if the car had not been tracked. I suspect not, and that's why I think this "tracking" issue with regard to this particular situation is a "red herring".
Why not?. Because the warranty doesn't cover abuse, and the damage shown could only occur under abusive conditions. Therefore the application of the warranty policy would appear to be consistent and the tracking issue is really irrelevant
There may be other reasons or circumstances as to what causes the abuse, but these, at the moment, are unknowable, or would just be speculation. The problem with buying "used" cars is that you really don't know how the car has been treated.
With respect to tracking, there are two issues 1.) being on the track, having fun and driving moderately fast (just like they do at PDE) and then there is 2) "tracking" whereby it's a "***** to the wall" approach (few capable), or an "overdriving" (many do) of the car. I think we are mature enough to know which is which, and the problems occur when some try to be "cute" and substitute the latter for the former, and expect warranty coverage. This behaviour may cause Porsche and it's Dealers to a little more careful on some claims, ceramics for instance. But overall, it seems on that issue thay made accomodations where appropriate.
It is my impression that "moderate" driving on the track (as opposed to tracking) will not cause the user any loss, or warranty nightmares. I trust that Porsche has the experience to tell the difference in types of usage, based upon the wear and tear on the various components versus the mileage.
For the record, having owned many cars, I have found Porsche to be most responsive and sympathetic (and will continue to own Porsches until it changes), and no I don't work for them or speak for them.
02-08-2006, 01:17 PM
#156
Advanced
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
Jack - there are 16 GT3s in our local club and all of them track extensively. There are two GT2s - same story. One of them was mine and the new owner tracks it. No failures of any kind except PCCB. The sample size of GT2s is too small to matter but both have 15,000 or more track miles and were and are driven by experts (instructors and/or racers, all). One thing I have noticed on all the 986 and 996 cars is that under high loads, the transmission will balk on the 2-3 upshift. This includes the GT cars. This never happens to me on the street but every high level track driver has experienced it on certain turns consistently say one in ten or so. If you are ham fisted dealing with it, (try to jam it into gear) I could see damage resulting. That might rate as abuse, but the transmission shouldn't balk in the first place. The PDE instructors are aware of the problem and teach a "heartbeat: technique. Wait a heartbeat before moving the lever to the next gear. I wonder if there is a connection to the failures being discussed here?
Dock - if I may, it seems that PCNA is using you as a conduit to this thread. Is the conduit two ways? Perhaps seeing the views of hard core enthusiasts, management may consider revising some of their policies. I can at least hope.
Rgds,
Dock - if I may, it seems that PCNA is using you as a conduit to this thread. Is the conduit two ways? Perhaps seeing the views of hard core enthusiasts, management may consider revising some of their policies. I can at least hope.
Rgds,
The salesperson said don't worry about that, remember this is the first iteration of this set up and it is not as refined on the 997, you need to slow down your shifts on the 996.
02-08-2006, 01:21 PM
#157
Advanced
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Colm
I think the that this topic has left the track and gone off on a tangent (pun intented).
The real issue (as I see it) as follows:
Fact:
The transmission was damaged.
Let's assume for discussion purposes, that is was due to abuse. The question then becomes would Porsche have fixed it, even if the car had not been tracked. I suspect not, and that's why I think this "tracking" issue with regard to this particular situation is a "red herring".
Why not?. Because the warranty doesn't cover abuse, and the damage shown could only occur under abusive conditions. Therefore the application of the warranty policy would appear to be consistent and the tracking issue is really irrelevant
There may be other reasons or circumstances as to what causes the abuse, but these, at the moment, are unknowable, or would just be speculation. The problem with buying "used" cars is that you really don't know how the car has been treated.
With respect to tracking, there are two issues 1.) being on the track, having fun and driving moderately fast (just like they do at PDE) and then there is 2) "tracking" whereby it's a "***** to the wall" approach (few capable), or an "overdriving" (many do) of the car. I think we are mature enough to know which is which, and the problems occur when some try to be "cute" and substitute the latter for the former, and expect warranty coverage. This behaviour may cause Porsche and it's Dealers to a little more careful on some claims, ceramics for instance. But overall, it seems on that issue thay made accomodations where appropriate.
It is my impression that "moderate" driving on the track (as opposed to tracking) will not cause the user any loss, or warranty nightmares. I trust that Porsche has the experience to tell the difference in types of usage, based upon the wear and tear on the various components versus the mileage.
For the record, having owned many cars, I have found Porsche to be most responsive and sympathetic (and will continue to own Porsches until it changes), and no I don't work for them or speak for them.
The real issue (as I see it) as follows:
Fact:
The transmission was damaged.
Let's assume for discussion purposes, that is was due to abuse. The question then becomes would Porsche have fixed it, even if the car had not been tracked. I suspect not, and that's why I think this "tracking" issue with regard to this particular situation is a "red herring".
Why not?. Because the warranty doesn't cover abuse, and the damage shown could only occur under abusive conditions. Therefore the application of the warranty policy would appear to be consistent and the tracking issue is really irrelevant
There may be other reasons or circumstances as to what causes the abuse, but these, at the moment, are unknowable, or would just be speculation. The problem with buying "used" cars is that you really don't know how the car has been treated.
With respect to tracking, there are two issues 1.) being on the track, having fun and driving moderately fast (just like they do at PDE) and then there is 2) "tracking" whereby it's a "***** to the wall" approach (few capable), or an "overdriving" (many do) of the car. I think we are mature enough to know which is which, and the problems occur when some try to be "cute" and substitute the latter for the former, and expect warranty coverage. This behaviour may cause Porsche and it's Dealers to a little more careful on some claims, ceramics for instance. But overall, it seems on that issue thay made accomodations where appropriate.
It is my impression that "moderate" driving on the track (as opposed to tracking) will not cause the user any loss, or warranty nightmares. I trust that Porsche has the experience to tell the difference in types of usage, based upon the wear and tear on the various components versus the mileage.
For the record, having owned many cars, I have found Porsche to be most responsive and sympathetic (and will continue to own Porsches until it changes), and no I don't work for them or speak for them.
As Porsche, through Dock, and The Manual state, they wouldn't have fixed the car even if it were not abused. The fact that this paticular transmission ***MAY*** have been abused is the Red Herring. Porsche's policy as discussed here is what it is and the abused or not abused status of Mike's tranny is irrelevent.
02-08-2006, 01:27 PM
#158
Advanced
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Dock
I'll try one more time.
If you think you have a case against the dealer(s)/PCNA concerning advertisements and warranty issues, take it to court.
What don't you understand about that??
If you think you have a case against the dealer(s)/PCNA concerning advertisements and warranty issues, take it to court.
What don't you understand about that??
When arguing with your wife, when you run out of things to say because she's right but you don't want to admit it do you say "if you don't agree, why don't you get a divorce" rather than admit you've got nothing left in the logical reasoning department?
I'll say it again too Dock, if I get PMd by anyone who has suffered damages from this policy and felt misled I will examine the case.
I cannot simply file a lawsuit in California (as of about a year ago) and say I wasn't damaged but this sucks.
02-08-2006, 02:17 PM
#159
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Colm my friend, you are reasonable as always. Consider though that there seems to be a gray area which connects tracking a car with "abuse". If the two are synonymous, then I am guilty of abusing my last five Porsches. Four of those cars have gone on to owners who continue to abuse them, yet there have been no failures.
My experience suggests that driving a Porsche on a race track does not constitute "abuse". If Dock speaks for PCNA, then track=abuse without question. I point this out only to mollify the "red herring" hypothesis. They may be another aspect to the "abuse" issue which I raised in an early post and erikcartman experienced as well. See below.
Oak - apparently the dealer dismantled the transmission and compared it with photos which allege to show "abuse". The tech rep from PCNA determined that the transmission had been abused. Again, that's PCNA being judge, jury and defendant. That bothers me, but the problem is not limited to Porsche alone. It's an industry wide thing.
My question about the 98x and 996 transmissions balking may be relevant. I know it happens, not just to me but to everyone who drives one of these cars competently on a track. If the "abuse" results from a problem in the transmission, is it really "abuse" or a defect. As I said (and Colm knows from first hand experience I believe) the PDE instructors are aware of the problem and teach a technique to avoid it. If the two are related, then Porsche may bear some responsibility especially during the warranty period - but - if Dock is right, tracking the car absolves them of the responsibility.
Is a transmission that refuses to go into gear a safety issue? I'll let the lawyers ponder that. It is a darn nuisance on the track and one needs to be very careful about getting the car back into gear. Pushing it into gear results in ugly sounds from the gear-box, I've been a passenger (instructor) in car when it happened. Judging by the noise, it can't be good for the innards.
Fascinating thread guys and faterikcartman I appreciate your views. I would encourage all parties to avoid the "so sue me" and "darn right I will" kind of dialogue.
Best,
My experience suggests that driving a Porsche on a race track does not constitute "abuse". If Dock speaks for PCNA, then track=abuse without question. I point this out only to mollify the "red herring" hypothesis. They may be another aspect to the "abuse" issue which I raised in an early post and erikcartman experienced as well. See below.
Oak - apparently the dealer dismantled the transmission and compared it with photos which allege to show "abuse". The tech rep from PCNA determined that the transmission had been abused. Again, that's PCNA being judge, jury and defendant. That bothers me, but the problem is not limited to Porsche alone. It's an industry wide thing.
My question about the 98x and 996 transmissions balking may be relevant. I know it happens, not just to me but to everyone who drives one of these cars competently on a track. If the "abuse" results from a problem in the transmission, is it really "abuse" or a defect. As I said (and Colm knows from first hand experience I believe) the PDE instructors are aware of the problem and teach a technique to avoid it. If the two are related, then Porsche may bear some responsibility especially during the warranty period - but - if Dock is right, tracking the car absolves them of the responsibility.
Is a transmission that refuses to go into gear a safety issue? I'll let the lawyers ponder that. It is a darn nuisance on the track and one needs to be very careful about getting the car back into gear. Pushing it into gear results in ugly sounds from the gear-box, I've been a passenger (instructor) in car when it happened. Judging by the noise, it can't be good for the innards.
Fascinating thread guys and faterikcartman I appreciate your views. I would encourage all parties to avoid the "so sue me" and "darn right I will" kind of dialogue.
Best,
02-08-2006, 02:49 PM
#160
Advanced
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Understood Bob.
I am glad I don't manhandle the stick and it popped out of my hand as I tried to go into third. That would have been awkward if I forced it in and there was a grinding groan--I can just see the sales guy saying "um, you break it you buy it."
Re the PDE cars, there are two '03tt's at local dealers here (one of which I test drove as explained above) with about 9K to 10K miles both in the metallic grey--are these likely PDE cars?
I am glad I don't manhandle the stick and it popped out of my hand as I tried to go into third. That would have been awkward if I forced it in and there was a grinding groan--I can just see the sales guy saying "um, you break it you buy it."
Re the PDE cars, there are two '03tt's at local dealers here (one of which I test drove as explained above) with about 9K to 10K miles both in the metallic grey--are these likely PDE cars?
02-08-2006, 02:57 PM
#161
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,802
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
...As I said (and Colm knows from first hand experience I believe) the PDE instructors are aware of the problem and teach a technique to avoid it. If the two are related, then Porsche may bear some responsibility especially during the warranty period...
I do have first hand experience with the heartbeat method, however I would describe the issue with the 911 gearbox differently.
There is no problem with the gearbox, there is a design "characteristic" which requires that you don't get ahead of the syncros, and therefore the "heartbeat" pause, which actually makes the shift faster and eliminates any potential for abuse. Ergo, the heartbeat method is designed to make you faster with shifts not designed to overcome a problem.
Individuals during spirited driving may let adrenilin rule and try to rush the shift (or force it), after all at that point (of the shift) we're pre-disposed to be in a hurry.
I think it is unfair to characterize this as a problem..it's all a part of knowing the car, as is knowing how to induce or correct oversteer. Let's call it an advanced users insight, and we all know the consequences of ignorance are abuse.
02-08-2006, 03:08 PM
#162
Race Director
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: KC ex pat marooned in NY
Posts: 13,005
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes
on
17 Posts
The PDE cars are C2s', not TT's.
I think Tom's case has merit bc the tranny was probably damaged before he ever got the car, he was the second owner I believe.
I think Tom's case has merit bc the tranny was probably damaged before he ever got the car, he was the second owner I believe.
02-08-2006, 03:22 PM
#163
Rennlist Member
Colm,
We all enjoy your cold logic. So apply it one more time. Why would a box be designed to do that on one specific shift?
This is a problem I haven't had, as my shift style has always been slightly slow since my early racing days could not have afforded trans rebuilds. But Bob suggests a specific circumstance.
Would that not be suggestive of a design glitch rather than a characteristic?
(I know you're up to the challenge) AS
We all enjoy your cold logic. So apply it one more time. Why would a box be designed to do that on one specific shift?
This is a problem I haven't had, as my shift style has always been slightly slow since my early racing days could not have afforded trans rebuilds. But Bob suggests a specific circumstance.
Would that not be suggestive of a design glitch rather than a characteristic?
(I know you're up to the challenge) AS
02-08-2006, 03:41 PM
#164
Intermediate
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Longboat Key, FL
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
I would encourage all parties to avoid the "so sue me" and "darn right I will" kind of dialogue.
02-08-2006, 03:53 PM
#165
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Colm, I don't know if you have experienced the balking I referred to in my post. It *only* takes place when the suspension is loaded. This happens consistently in the same places at Le Circuit Mt Tremblant and also at Mosport. I have been told it happens at the Glen too but I haven't been there recently enough to know myself.
I can shift at my normal speed (not lightning fast) without a problem except exiting certain turns, then a normal shift goes bad. I suspect it has something to do with torque twisting something. It happens about one in ten times and always on the same turns. This experience is generalized. Now it is indeed a "characteristic" but is it a flaw? PDE instructors, and now mine too teach the pause method but .. what if you don't go to Rennsport DE or PDE? When the "characteristic manifests itself, you cannot get the car into 3rd gear and any attempt to persuade it will result in grinding sounds. When it happens to me, I clutch out, go to neutral and then shift into 5th (to be damn sure I do not go into 1st!).
best,
I can shift at my normal speed (not lightning fast) without a problem except exiting certain turns, then a normal shift goes bad. I suspect it has something to do with torque twisting something. It happens about one in ten times and always on the same turns. This experience is generalized. Now it is indeed a "characteristic" but is it a flaw? PDE instructors, and now mine too teach the pause method but .. what if you don't go to Rennsport DE or PDE? When the "characteristic manifests itself, you cannot get the car into 3rd gear and any attempt to persuade it will result in grinding sounds. When it happens to me, I clutch out, go to neutral and then shift into 5th (to be damn sure I do not go into 1st!).
best,