Dyno comparison with and without X50?
03-08-2004, 06:12 PM
#16
Nordschleife Master
Originally posted by Sloth
I asked about that while on a factory tour. German law stipulates that the engines have to dyno within x% of the factory published number. Every Porsche engine is dynoed at the factory. I was told that PAG allows a +5% over the factory rate, but anything under the factory published number and the engine gets rejected. Many talk about PAG being conservative in their HP ratings, probably by about 5%. One could speculate that PAG does this to ensure they have to rebuild fewer engines.
For example, there have been two GT3's that have gone to the dyno. Both of them had converted FW numbers in the 400hp range... or ~5% higher than the factory rating of 380.
I asked about that while on a factory tour. German law stipulates that the engines have to dyno within x% of the factory published number. Every Porsche engine is dynoed at the factory. I was told that PAG allows a +5% over the factory rate, but anything under the factory published number and the engine gets rejected. Many talk about PAG being conservative in their HP ratings, probably by about 5%. One could speculate that PAG does this to ensure they have to rebuild fewer engines.
For example, there have been two GT3's that have gone to the dyno. Both of them had converted FW numbers in the 400hp range... or ~5% higher than the factory rating of 380.
Lets use the GT3 as an example. If every GT3 engine makes 380hp on the engine dyno when new, then it will make more than that once broken in. So every engine that comes out of Porsche's factory makes more than claimed horsepower once it is broken in.
03-08-2004, 07:47 PM
#17
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"Look out for those 1000HP modded Vipers." - comparing a x50 power upgrade to a similar power upgrade provided by an aftermarket company is completely different than comparing a modded 1000hp viper as none is offered factory by dodge ... if they did offer one for 17k extra and an aftermarket guy charged 500bucks that would be a fair comparison.
"Get x-50, and know that the best tuners in the world," - you don't think there are better individual tuners out there than whom Porsche hires? maybe as a unit Porsche works best (no doubt), what about the genius tuner in the US who doesn't want to go to Germany to live or wants to work for themselves? hmmmm?
might as well keep stock exhaust, stock rims, stock everything then.
all imho
"Get x-50, and know that the best tuners in the world," - you don't think there are better individual tuners out there than whom Porsche hires? maybe as a unit Porsche works best (no doubt), what about the genius tuner in the US who doesn't want to go to Germany to live or wants to work for themselves? hmmmm?
might as well keep stock exhaust, stock rims, stock everything then.
all imho
03-08-2004, 09:03 PM
#18
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There are no genius tuners in the US,only peak horsepower dynoqueens. I have never seen a US tuner trying a laprecord on the Ring (like Gemballa or Techart) or participate in the German tuner GP with all the top european companies present.
03-08-2004, 09:08 PM
#19
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Both of them had converted FW numbers in the 400hp range... or ~5% higher than the factory rating of 380.
03-08-2004, 09:13 PM
#20
Drifting
Originally posted by 1988952
There are no genius tuners in the US,only peak horsepower dynoqueens. I have never seen a US tuner trying a laprecord on the Ring (like Gemballa or Techart) or participate in the German tuner GP with all the top european companies present.
There are no genius tuners in the US,only peak horsepower dynoqueens. I have never seen a US tuner trying a laprecord on the Ring (like Gemballa or Techart) or participate in the German tuner GP with all the top european companies present.
Do people truly believe that the USA lacks engineering talent to tune an engine? I'm a Canadian and will openly pay respect to a country that can land, not one, but TWO rovers on a planet far, far away.
If Americans can land rovers on Mars, I'm pretty sure they can tune an engine to survive and perhaps win a race in Germany.
Sheesh!
Farzaan
03-08-2004, 09:18 PM
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If Americans can land rovers on Mars, I'm pretty sure they can tune an engine to survive and perhaps win a race in Germany.
03-08-2004, 09:36 PM
#22
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1988952;
You need to pick up the current European Car Magizine. All the major tuners were asked to come.. The ones that showed came to play. And yes, I heard all the excuses when the event was being planned.
The story changes boys if you install Gt1 hybrids. Your torque curve will keep rising quicker vs the K24's. Oh and by the way, in the shoot-out all of the car except one tuner used Hybrid turbochargers. The 7th place car used GT2 K24's..
You need to pick up the current European Car Magizine. All the major tuners were asked to come.. The ones that showed came to play. And yes, I heard all the excuses when the event was being planned.
The story changes boys if you install Gt1 hybrids. Your torque curve will keep rising quicker vs the K24's. Oh and by the way, in the shoot-out all of the car except one tuner used Hybrid turbochargers. The 7th place car used GT2 K24's..
03-08-2004, 09:52 PM
#23
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Do the guys with mods ever get concerned over warranty issues? I've read all the arguements about why PCNA shouldn't disallow warranty for a chip mod, but do the owners of chipped cars really have confidence when you're pushing the car that your warranty is valid? This arguement vanishes if you wait til the car is out of warranty to modify. All you need is one CEL malfunction to start getting heartburn. To me, over the years I hope to enjoy the car, the X50 is worth it. AS
03-09-2004, 12:33 AM
#24
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AS,
I have had many warranty issues taken care of on my car. My dealer knows about me, the car and the issues with the Federal Warranty acts.
1988952,
Are really going to discuss that the US has nothing valid in the way of tuners? All were invited, none chose to show. You should try not to lump all tuners in the same basket. We are not all the same.
I have had many warranty issues taken care of on my car. My dealer knows about me, the car and the issues with the Federal Warranty acts.
1988952,
Are really going to discuss that the US has nothing valid in the way of tuners? All were invited, none chose to show. You should try not to lump all tuners in the same basket. We are not all the same.
03-09-2004, 03:06 AM
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No need to get defensive, no disrespect intended.
But, if you want to take the belt, you have to go the champions hometown and that happens to be Germany in this case. No 1/4 mile, no 'dynojet corrected numbers', just contact Sport auto/Horst v Sauma to arrange a supertest at the Ring and your done, plain and simple and I am glad to eat crow if it is sucessful. Most posters cannot imagine want kind of a stresslevel the Ring puts on cars,I have seen it firsthand. Yeah,the guys from the far east came with there 1000 Hp Skylines and Supras,guess what, they blew up or had to be dramaticly detuned just to last ONE lap!
Plus the factory tests there, so please whats that phrase again, put up or shut up ?
But, if you want to take the belt, you have to go the champions hometown and that happens to be Germany in this case. No 1/4 mile, no 'dynojet corrected numbers', just contact Sport auto/Horst v Sauma to arrange a supertest at the Ring and your done, plain and simple and I am glad to eat crow if it is sucessful. Most posters cannot imagine want kind of a stresslevel the Ring puts on cars,I have seen it firsthand. Yeah,the guys from the far east came with there 1000 Hp Skylines and Supras,guess what, they blew up or had to be dramaticly detuned just to last ONE lap!
Plus the factory tests there, so please whats that phrase again, put up or shut up ?
03-09-2004, 11:58 AM
#26
I'll buy that a Nurburgring test would be interesting, but it is unrealistic
as a test of our cars as they are used:
1 - The allignment and spring strengths needed for a max-ring-run
would be crucial, but wouldn't be tolerable for long in a street car.
2 - The motor would have to be able to take more stress than even the
nuttiest of us can put on our street car. In the U.S. the opportunities,
fun, and status is in acceleration and speed for shorter periods. We can
safely afford more power.
You don't have to win Le Mans to claim the 1/4 mile title. The invitation
was for them to try to win a different belt. They are maybe smart enough
to think they might lose. Perhaps they are not sprinters, and there is no
shame in that, but it is also true that one can be a healthy, winning long-
lived sprinter.
The factory also tests standing-start acceleration, and on the dyno...
In the real world, the stock Porsche is a wonderful car. It is also true that
expert individual attention can extract more from it safely. If two altered
cars can both last reliably as actually used, and one will beat the other
as actually used, the amount of balancing prestige in the possibility that
the other car would last longer if raced at Nurburgring is a matter of taste.
Joe
as a test of our cars as they are used:
1 - The allignment and spring strengths needed for a max-ring-run
would be crucial, but wouldn't be tolerable for long in a street car.
2 - The motor would have to be able to take more stress than even the
nuttiest of us can put on our street car. In the U.S. the opportunities,
fun, and status is in acceleration and speed for shorter periods. We can
safely afford more power.
You don't have to win Le Mans to claim the 1/4 mile title. The invitation
was for them to try to win a different belt. They are maybe smart enough
to think they might lose. Perhaps they are not sprinters, and there is no
shame in that, but it is also true that one can be a healthy, winning long-
lived sprinter.
The factory also tests standing-start acceleration, and on the dyno...
In the real world, the stock Porsche is a wonderful car. It is also true that
expert individual attention can extract more from it safely. If two altered
cars can both last reliably as actually used, and one will beat the other
as actually used, the amount of balancing prestige in the possibility that
the other car would last longer if raced at Nurburgring is a matter of taste.
Joe
03-09-2004, 05:35 PM
#27
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Well,let's just step away from the Ring for a moment and try a more common scenerio:
Hans lives in Munich and his friend Franz lives in Frankfurt (about 300 miles) and Franz invites him for a beer and some fun in Frankfurt. So Hans jumps in his 996tt, gets on the Autobahn, we all know that is a two,sometimes three lane road,hills,tunnels,long straights and some major corners and pushes,hard all the way to 180mph,down to 80mph because of roadcondtions or traffic,back to full throttle 130-150-180mph,like a rubberband all the way to Frankfurt trying to be as fast as possible to get to his beer and that my friends means doom for any bolt on 600whp (dyno obsessed)engine.......
Some might think Europeans trash there cars,no, they drive them like tools,not toys and tools need to last.
Hans lives in Munich and his friend Franz lives in Frankfurt (about 300 miles) and Franz invites him for a beer and some fun in Frankfurt. So Hans jumps in his 996tt, gets on the Autobahn, we all know that is a two,sometimes three lane road,hills,tunnels,long straights and some major corners and pushes,hard all the way to 180mph,down to 80mph because of roadcondtions or traffic,back to full throttle 130-150-180mph,like a rubberband all the way to Frankfurt trying to be as fast as possible to get to his beer and that my friends means doom for any bolt on 600whp (dyno obsessed)engine.......
Some might think Europeans trash there cars,no, they drive them like tools,not toys and tools need to last.
03-09-2004, 06:49 PM
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Thats real live over here.
Sounds very common to me i.e doing this on a regular basis despite the 180 being more of a 190+ most times
For me that is all about driving a porsche.
Cant do that with a ferrari or lambo. (perhaps latest ones?)
The german tuners know it and provide quality. Therefore you have to pay at least >>10K$ for performance upgrades.
In the us the situation is completely different, so i think bolt on kits are ok if you keep in mind that it is not factory bullet proof.
Sounds very common to me i.e doing this on a regular basis despite the 180 being more of a 190+ most times
For me that is all about driving a porsche.
Cant do that with a ferrari or lambo. (perhaps latest ones?)
The german tuners know it and provide quality. Therefore you have to pay at least >>10K$ for performance upgrades.
In the us the situation is completely different, so i think bolt on kits are ok if you keep in mind that it is not factory bullet proof.
03-10-2004, 08:32 AM
#29
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Originally posted by 1988952
Well,let's just step away from the Ring for a moment and try a more common scenerio:
Hans lives in Munich and his friend Franz lives in Frankfurt (about 300 miles) and Franz invites him for a beer and some fun in Frankfurt. So Hans jumps in his 996tt, gets on the Autobahn, we all know that is a two,sometimes three lane road,hills,tunnels,long straights and some major corners and pushes,hard all the way to 180mph,down to 80mph because of roadcondtions or traffic,back to full throttle 130-150-180mph,like a rubberband all the way to Frankfurt trying to be as fast as possible to get to his beer and that my friends means doom for any bolt on 600whp (dyno obsessed)engine.......
Some might think Europeans trash there cars,no, they drive them like tools,not toys and tools need to last.
Well,let's just step away from the Ring for a moment and try a more common scenerio:
Hans lives in Munich and his friend Franz lives in Frankfurt (about 300 miles) and Franz invites him for a beer and some fun in Frankfurt. So Hans jumps in his 996tt, gets on the Autobahn, we all know that is a two,sometimes three lane road,hills,tunnels,long straights and some major corners and pushes,hard all the way to 180mph,down to 80mph because of roadcondtions or traffic,back to full throttle 130-150-180mph,like a rubberband all the way to Frankfurt trying to be as fast as possible to get to his beer and that my friends means doom for any bolt on 600whp (dyno obsessed)engine.......
Some might think Europeans trash there cars,no, they drive them like tools,not toys and tools need to last.
03-10-2004, 08:48 AM
#30
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Guys,
Two things; 1) An American Tuner did very well in the euro shoot out. He is a frequenter poster to this list.
2) The X50 is essentially the GT2 power-train. A couple of GT2's have seen the dyno and showed wheel HP near 480 HP! Porsche serious understates their power. The X50 and GT2 have a "secret" overboost feature giving a couple lbs more boost for 45 seconds. This does not show up in steady state HP tests. If it were my choice and I wanted the extra power I would order the X 50. If I already had a car without it then I'd have a chat with Imagine Auto. The trick is usable power. You can tweak an engine to look good on the dyno but when you drive it the difference in 0-60 times for example do not reflect the eye popping dyno numbers.
Regards,
Two things; 1) An American Tuner did very well in the euro shoot out. He is a frequenter poster to this list.
2) The X50 is essentially the GT2 power-train. A couple of GT2's have seen the dyno and showed wheel HP near 480 HP! Porsche serious understates their power. The X50 and GT2 have a "secret" overboost feature giving a couple lbs more boost for 45 seconds. This does not show up in steady state HP tests. If it were my choice and I wanted the extra power I would order the X 50. If I already had a car without it then I'd have a chat with Imagine Auto. The trick is usable power. You can tweak an engine to look good on the dyno but when you drive it the difference in 0-60 times for example do not reflect the eye popping dyno numbers.
Regards,