Frank Urbaniak

Car is at Munks Motors in Waterford Michigan for diagnosis, I live in Windsor ON Canada. Munks came highly recommended. Codes were read using my Durametric and car has 136k km. Tiptronic. Have already replaced the Passenger side CAM position sensor but did not solve the problem.
Munks believe that there has been a breakdown of the engine's timing adjustment system. Munks will switch the two CAM position sensors to see if the error codes follow, to rule them out.
Durametric also shows a secondary air system fail.
Anything else we could check before they tear into the engine to check cams, sprockets, chains, guides?

Kevin

Frank;

None of these codes point to a slipped camshaft adjustment AT this moment. I have seen this failure with mice eating the wiring harness. If you had a previous coolant burst/failure connectors might have corroded. I would swap the camshaft variocam solenoid Bank to bank and see if the CEL moved.

P1397
113 Camshaft position sensor 2 - signal implausible
Diagnosis conditions
• Engine running
Possible fault cause
♦ Loose contact
♦ Camshaft position sensor
♦ If both CMP sensor signals are missing, the start will take at
least 10 seconds.
♦ For safety reasons, the ignition timing is retarded.
Affected terminals
Terminals III/7, III/17 and III/18

P1325
178 Camshaft Adjustment, Bank 2 – Signal Implausible
Diagnosis conditions
• Time elapsed after start-up greater than 5 seconds
• Engine temperature greater than -10 °C
• Engine speed between 680 rpm and 6.760 rpm
• No fault in camshaft adjustment output stage
• Reference mark OK
• No fault in camshaft position sensors
• No fault in engine temperature
Possible fault cause
Camshaft does not reach early or late position
♦ Dirt in system
♦ Solenoid hydraulic valve mechanically blocked
Affected terminals

Frank Urbaniak

Thanks Kevin, I have forwarded this info to Munks

Frank Urbaniak

Kevin, here is a snip it of Munks Motors reply so far;
Yesterday, I had Dan perform the scan tool testing on the Variocam system. He reports that ALL aspects of that system are passing the scan-tool tests. This doesn’t GUARANTEE that there’s not an intermittent electronic problem in any portion of that system, but it certainly would seem to rule out a GROSS failure of the system.
He also noted, via scan tool, that the “out-of-index” margin on the camshafts does not seem to vary based on RPM. By that, I mean to say that the degrees that each cam is out-of-synch with the other cam remain the same, even at different RPM’s. The driver’s side shows being out-of-index by roughly 0.5 degrees, the passenger’s side shows as being roughly 2.5 degrees out. When the variocam is overridden and activated, the driver’s side shows roughly 30 degrees advance, and the passengers roughly 28 degrees. This is consistent, and does not change with RPMs.
The fact that the “margin” doesn’t fluctuate any significant amount, based on RPM, STRONGLY suggests that this is a “hard mechanical” failure, rather than a Variocam failure. The entire reason for the Variocam’s existence is to change the advance and retard (timing) to suit the RPMs. The Variocam does so by literally advancing or retarding the cams themselves. So the fact that the Variocams are passing the scan tool tests SHOULD mean that they are functioning. The only way you can have an “out-of-margin” cam that stays exactly that far out of margin no matter what the RPM…..that STRONGLY suggests to me that the cam(s) on the passenger’s side are literally, physically, out of index.
Now. The original concept I was chasing was that the cam adjuster I originally estimated might have “lost a shoe.” They have little plastic shoes that the chain slides on, and those plastic shoes have been known to break or just pop right off. That’s what happened to the other one I told you about, the Boxster. The shoe was missing. The guy had gotten INCREDIBLY lucky that the chain kept on sliding on the metal plate that sits beneath the shoe, it COULD have caused the chain to bunch up and break.
Your engine, according to Dan’s more thorough research, does NOT have the tensioner that I estimated….but it DOES have plastic guides that guide the chain around the engine. One of those guides breaking or disintegrating could have the same effect.
Furthermore, there have been any number of Rennlist comments we’ve seen that STRONGLY SUGGEST that the timing chain will “stretch” as time goes by. This is not an unusual thing, any engine that is chain-driven WILL have “chain stretch” over time. It is fairly rare for such stretch to actually cause a PROBLEM, but it’s not unheard of. The Rennlist threads all applied to Boxsters, but it’s certainly still applicable as a general principle.
The method by which we would confirm or deny this, by sheer coincidence, STILL involves most of the work I had originally estimated for you. We’d still need to get the timing covers off, only this time, we’d be doing so to physically check the camshaft indexes, and possibly to re-index them.
I have not YET dropped the filter to look at it, but that will STILL be something I want to do prior to actually tearing anything apart. That may change my mind, in that if I find a ton of particulate, I’m going to get VERY nervous about the innards of your engine. But if I DON’T see a lot of particulate, then I have no other evidence to go by other than the cams being out-of-index. And I don’t have any sort of technical service bulletins from Porsche that suggest any issues of this sort, and the Internet is only offering the commentary about timing chain stretch, at this point in time. So, I’m left with the conclusion that the cams are out-of-index from each other, either because of chain stretch or because a guide has broken.
The big down-side of the concept of re-setting the cams is that in order to do so, we’d have to get the engine all the way out of the car. Dan has looked carefully at the procedure, and there are aspects of it that he simply can’t see being able to do with the engine still in place. If we were just taking off one side cover and replacing a single component, we could probably get away with leaving the engine in the car. But the tools used to ALIGN the cams, from scratch, won’t fit between the engine and the frame. He doesn’t THINK we can even get away with just LOWERING the motor. He’s pretty darn sure it’ll need to come all the way out.
We’re PROBABLY talking somewhere on the close order of 40 hours of labor.
Which is just crazy expensive….UNLESS the motor had to come out for some OTHER reason.
The way the car is behaving in the shop is not something we can say is actually a “problem.” It isn’t noisy, it isn’t misfiring, it shows no signs of ill health.
It seems to me implausible that a guide has broken. If it had, I would expect to at LEAST be hearing a scraping noise coming from the motor. Furthermore, I would have expected a broken guide to produce a sufficient mismatch between the two cams that it would actually cause a misfire.
The other way to look at it is that if the motor DOES have to come out, then there’s probably several OTHER things that one would want to do while it was out of the car. Freshen up hoses, perhaps re-seal a few areas that are prone to leakage, that sort of thing.
This is a big enough leap of faith that I would like the opportunity to seek a second opinion. The data that I’ve gathered should be sufficient for a different technician to think things over and either reach the same conclusion Dan did, or at least be able to make other recommendation. It’s not that we’re not confident of our findings, we are. It’s that this situation is not QUITE like any I’ve run into yet, and I’d sure like to have a few other opinions that I respect under my belt before I tell you “this is absolutely what needs to be done.”
My tech, Dan, admits that if this were his car, he’d be really sitting on the fence about what to do. He says he might well decide to take his chances and keep driving it the way it is, with the idea that he might be able to find a better answer (i.e. one that doesn’t involve dropping the motor out of the car). He understands that there’s a CHANCE that some catastrophic failure might occur, but he points out that if this warning has been coming on for any great length of time, and if the failure in question were one that COULD damage the motor…..it WOULD HAVE by now.
It’s hard to argue that logic. I’m not saying that you should go drive your car and feel totally worry-free. But I am saying that all the evidence we have at this point shows that the cams are not so far out of synch that they will cause a mechanical problem. And curing that out-of-synch-ness, at least by the best info I currently have, is going to involve WAY more money and time than I had originally counted on.
So, what I’d like to suggest is this. Let me drop the filter, and inspect it. If we DON’T see a lot of particulate, then I’d feel totally comfortable reinstalling that same filter. If we DO see a lot of particulate, then naturally I’d rather install a new filter. And then, at that point, we’d have even more to talk about.
If, on the other hand, I don’t see a lot of particulate, I’m inclined to say that I want more opinions from more people before I officially “sell” you any significant teardown.
I am willing to keep trying to research this and gather opinions for as long as you can stand me keeping the car. I cannot promise you a definitive answer AT ALL, at this point, but I can promise you a greater degree of confidence if I am allowed to do so.
I would also tap you for your own research abilities, as you have clearly done so already. I am absolutely open to further input.

Thank you, sir!

HTX996t

Frank Urbaniak

No tune, completely stock.

"02996ttx50

I've needed to r&r the CPS before and I'm at 156K miles. My planned rebuild is in another 150K miles. I hope you guys sort the issues. as r&r'ing the CP Sensor is a half hour deal.

Kevin

I would be looking for a used replacement engine.
a) The variocam module is currently priced at over $2100 EACH
b) If your camshaft variocam groove are out of spec (too wide) A replacement cam is $1700 each
c) The variocam sealing ring cover is $370 each
d) I'd replace all the inlet tappets while in there..
e) Important>>your shop does not have the factory tools to do this job. The purchase price is over $6500 to buy original Porsche tools
f) Labor to do this job begins at $5K and climbs..

The engine will need to be dropped! Dropping and removing can be debated LOL

Frank Urbaniak

The shop has inspected the oil filter and all is clear with no debris. They hooked up the Durametric once again only to find they were getting very whacky readings such as engine temp. for example, being at -48 degrees ( I know impossible). After pulling the ECU and cleaning all connectors, and even tilting it back and forth, continued with odd readings. They now suspect a bad ECU, and we are sending it to Califonia to get checked. This will take some time, so I will report back in the new year. Codes are still there even though it starts/idles/runs fine.

Frank Urbaniak

Engine ECU/DME taken out and sent out for diagnosis. Came back faulty, throwing those engine codes for no reason at all, so will be repaired and sent back to Munks for re-install. Let's hope that fixes the problem!

Road King

Frank,

I'm sure that we all anxiously optimistic that this is the problem! I certainly hope it's just the ECU.

Looking forward to you next update.

T Kono

ECU repair?? Do they re-flow the soldering, etc., or what?

Frank Urbaniak

Not sure but hope to get a full inspection report soon.

Frank Urbaniak

the following is an update from Munks on my car:
" Hello Frank! George Walsh here. We have a culprit on what was putting oil into the wiring loom, and subsequently into the computer!

You will find below some pictures. The top picture is the oil spot the car left on our floor over the weekend. Interestingly, nobody recalls seeing any significant oil leaks in the zones we had parked the car earlier in our diagnostic processes. I am speculating that this leak has been seeping for some time now, and has just recently gotten significantly worse.

The second picture down is a wiring connector. This connects the main vehicle wiring loom (that goes through the body of the car, and has fifty or sixty different branches, one of which is the main engine computer) to a short loom; that short loom in turn connects to the trans. As you can see in that second picture, the plug is FULL of oil, at the connector end.

The third pic is of the loom at the TRANS end, which is a much larger and differently-shaped plug, but it is the same loom. The pic doesn’t quite do it justice, but that plug is also nice and wet on the outside. It is significantly less accessible than the connector end, which is why we took a pic of the outside rather than unplugging it and showing you the inside. However, Joe traced the loom from the connector end up over the trans to the other side, and he is sure that this is the loom we are looking at.

What has happened, here, is that the plug IN THE BODY OF THE TRANS has begun leaking. That has forced fluid out into the exterior plug. I have seen this condition in literally dozens of cars over the years (Audi’s, VW’s, BMW’s and Mercedes’s, as well as some rare Porsches). The electronics of the trans have to get their signal from the vehicle, and vice-versa. The electrical connector that is in the body of the trans is sealed from the interior by some form of o-ring or seal. That seal has broken down with age and has begun leaking. The fluid is, undoubtedly, not under a great deal of pressure, or we would have been seeing drips on the ground some time ago, and your computer might well have been FULL of oil, rather than just having some oil on the inside of it. The thing is, once fluid starts even OOZING into a wiring loom, capillary action takes over.

Imagine, if you will, a candle wick. You have several small fibers that are twisted into one larger “cord.” The liquid wax is drawn in between all of the small fibers, and eventually suffuses the entire wick. Your wiring loom is a similar collection of small fibers (wires), encased within a larger cord (loom material, a fabric or rubber tube that covers all the individual wires). Once fluid enters that loom, if there’s even enough of it to put a LITTLE bit into the tube, capillary action takes over from there. As long as there’s a consistent flow of fluid (no matter how small), eventually it will “wick’ its way to the other end of the loom. It might even wick its way into other BRANCHES of the loom, inside the vehicle. We might well find other plugs that have oil in them.

Given the pain-in-the-*** nature of going around and unplugging every single wiring connection on your car, I am not actually recommending that we do so. I am simply pointing out the possibility. If any OTHER odd electrical issues show up, I am going to be highly suspicious that oil in a loom might be the cause for them. I bring this up now mainly for your future reference.

If this were an Audi or VW or Mercedes, I would know for sure that the part that leaks is a part that can be resealed without having to completely disassemble and tear apart the transmission. The plastic plug that fits into the body of the trans, on those cars, is a separate component….it’s essentially just a plastic piece that has holes that the electrical terminals fit through. It is normally sealed by means of an o-ring that fits around the body of that plastic piece. On such a vehicle, the part is cheap, the labor is not too awful.

I tried calling my local Porsche dealer for purposes of pricing out such a piece. I described it to them pretty comprehensively in a verbal manner, and sent them the pic that had the trans body plug in it. They were unable to locate such a piece on their parts diagrams.

That means one of two things. Either they’re just not FINDING it, which I might be able to remedy by looking at the diagrams myself….OR, it might mean that on your car, there is no separate piece. If there is no separate piece, then in order to cure this condition, your transmission will have to come out of your car and get serviced by a rebuilder. If “possibility number two” is the case, then I really haven’t a clue about pricing.

I am investigating further, and will let you know ASAP just how bad this is going to be."

So there you have it, and if you know the part number please let us know, and I will keep you all posted on further developments.

Frank Urbaniak

Update: So replacing that transmission wiring harness and connector at the transmission has done the trick. Car starts/drives/shifts normal and does not throw any error codes. Although it has cost me about $10k to fix, I think it is now fixed. I'll be picking up the car soon. Thanks for everyone's input!