rockitman

Bob, I can't see making contact with it in a wreck as long as I am strapped in. Most of my height is in the legs...When I am sitting in the GT3 seats, the back of my head is protected by the head rest portion of the seat. I am also sitting an additional 1 inch lower due to the brey-krause seat mount bracket. The roll bar is behind the seat, not above my head....

rockitman

I read the thread...He talks about the head rest flexing back to make contact with the roll bar...I guess it would depend on the type of seat/headrest involved. There is no mention as to which type of seat and I find the fiberglass seat back of the GT3 seats to be quite rigid so I question his statement of fact or whether it is factual regarding the GT3 seat/tech equip. roll bar combination. It seems to me that Porsche would already of thought about this prior to marketing their roll bar for road cars...

bob_dallas

Hard to tell from the picture I guess - it looked like there was rollbar above the seatback. My head is supported fairly well by my seatback too but if I moved up and back a few inches in a crash then I'd hit the rollbar from the looks of what I saw. You have it in your car so you're the best judge.

another topic - since your height is mainly in your legs, how's the reach to your steering wheel? I can reach mine but I don't have as much bend in my elbows as I'd like, especially for track use. I'm researching steering wheel extensions right now - so far I've found Gemballa with a 40mm extension but you have to use their wheel. Just an FYI

rockitman

My arm length is about 39" and I find I have a pretty comfortable bend in my arms. I actually have the seat up closer to the wheel than I did prior and this is because of the console delete kit. I am now able to spread my legs apart more since the console is not there to obstruct my right leg/shin and my knee no longer jams with my hand on the wheel when I have to turn it all of the way...

bob_dallas

yeah, I'll be installing the console delete this weekend and I'm hoping that solves several problems

rockitman

I think you will find the console delete very advantageous to your driving position including heel/toe downshifting. It's easier to rotate the right half of the foot onto the gas for blipping when you can spread out your legs more. Just curious, do you have GT3 seats??? They sit very upright and this too lends to reaching the steering wheel more comfortably....since the seat back does not recline like the sport seats....

E36S50

Your bar looks great! Slightly OT, but safety would be a concern of mine with cage/roll bar in a street car. In most street performance car circles it is considered somewhat unsafe at best, to have a rollbar in a car that you don't wear a helmet in. Now, I understad that Porsche must have taken this into consideration before building, marketing and selling these bars, but I wonder why Porsche feels it is safe when others do not?

Has anyone researched this? Having seen seats collapse I am certain it would be possible for ones head to make contact with the bar in a serious accident. On the otherhand many other parts of the car (B pillar, roof liner, etc) are also very solid, and would really hurt if your head smashed into one of them

What to do?

rockitman

Bob, interesting quote from "pig4Bill" on that rollbar/harness danger thread...

"Obviously Euro GT3 seats, or any other shell-type seat, are not going to let your head hit the rollbar in a crash. Where you would need to check, is the traditional seat that reclines. The danger is that in a severe crash, the seatback would collapse, and possibly allow your head to hit the rollbar. Since Porsche seats generally have the headrest built-in, and many rollbars have some sort of harness or camera-mount structure directly behind the seat, that may not be a danger. You would have to check on a case-by-case basis to see if a fully reclined seat would put your head in danger.

Worst case, you may have to install a seatback brace, similar to one required by most U.S. race sanctioning bodies."
This makes be feel better about the situation since a shell type racing seat back cannot collapse or flex far enough backwards to allow the unprotected noggen to make contact with the bar. Seems to me that GT3 seats or the like type shell seats are mandatory equipment with a roll bar...

DJF1

My PCA track car has mandatory back brace even with FIA approved racing seats in. I asked the Chief Scrutineer about this last year and he quoted that a life was lost because the seat did not have a back brace and literally the seat with the driver launched towards the back of the car (the front bolts stripped off) , the roll bar snapped the drivers head and the his life was lost... So since then he said thay mandated the use of the back brace which will hold the seat in position. At that point he also mentioned that the back brace has created other types of injury to the back, but this is preferable to a life been lost....
Anyway you look at it for me a roll bar should be used on a track car only where you drive it with full gear on etc etc. I used to have a DAS roll bar in my cabrio, it is out and sold...

rockitman

DJ, Have to disagree with you on this one...In my car, there is only a 1/2 inch gap between the seat back headrest area and the roll bar's harness bar cross member that supports it at the mid point of the head rest. So during a crash where the body and head rebounds back into the seat and headrest, there still is no way for the head to make contact with the bar, even if the seat bolts stripped...(The harness bar would still be supporting the back of the head rest keeping the seat upright) It is impossible for the head to make contact with the bar as long as you remain strapped into the seat. Blanket statments that roll bars for street are dangerous is misleading. You have to take into account, the type and brand of roll bar, the type of seats, seat position in relation to the roll bar and the type of car it is in. I have sat in my car since this discussion and tried to evision if my head could make contact. The answer is no based on what I have outlined above. So I sleep well at night knowing that if I was in a collision whether I rolled or not, I am better off with the rollbar. IMO. Thanks for sharing the fear factor. It is important for everyone to review their own configurations to determine if it's appropriate or not. If I did not have a racing shell type seat and they were the hinged type stock sport seats, I would agree with what you say...

PS: Perhaps a retro fit cross member attached across the bar at the mid point of the seat back would be a good thing to do so short up support from behind. I think I will look into that....

DJF1

I do not claim to be an expert on this, but the experts at PCA racing have concluded that a seat back brace is necessary. I will not argue with that as there are many people there who make very informed decisions. The only thing I do know is that the accident I mentioned is a cold hard fact, I do not know the grim details, in fact I did not really want to know... I must say that I have heard from other racers that is was really ugly, the driver was launched through the roll cage bars towards the back of the car, also dont forget that the shoulder straps are anchored in the harness bar portion of the roll bar which is such a case their effectiveness is different as their hold angle is altered.
In any case again I'm not claiming to be an expert, I just stated a sad fact for everyone's info as this is the responsible thing to do.
If you do decide to go with a back seat brace BK Krause adjustable brace seem to be the most popular on PCA racing circles.

Bob Rouleau

Interesting thread guys. FWIW, I see the issue as one of a safety system. Individual parts need to be considered as part of the "system". The GT3 seats and bar are a nicely designed system. The GT3 seat is very rigid, does not fold and is high enough to prevent your head from touching the bar. The bar itself is cross braced behind the seat. If the seat moves rearward it will be stopped by the cross bracing. It seems to me that the "Clubsport" kit from Porsche was designed by competent engineers. Using the bar with ordinary seats may be a hazard.

On a similar subject, if it was up to me, I would ban the use of harness bars in cars without a roll bar. Imagine a roll-over in a car with 5 or 6 pt harnesses. You are held upright and if the roof collapses your head is going to get it. Using the OEM 3 pt seat belts allows your body to move out of the way. There was a roll-over at a DE and the roof of a TT collapsed enough to hit the top of the passenger seat. Fortunately there was no passenger.

MJones

In a high G-force incident (crash) things happen in ways we cannot expect. Webbing in belts will stretch perhaps 1", stuff flexes and possibly breaks.
Heck, your on the street stopped the stop sign, and someone on a cellphone zones out and drives into your rear at 30mph, hopefully your unprotected head will not make contact with the bar

Bob Rouleau

MJ,
I'm not sure what you mean. In my car if I'm hit from behind, my head will contact the back of the seat which is higher than the roll bar. The seat is padded and the back is made of composite. I agree that belts would do little since my body would be moving away from them. I still don't see a problem with the Porsche seats and Porsche bar. Something else is another matter.
My desire for the bar is based on the fact that I DO NOT WANT to be harnessed into a car (6 points) without a roll bar.

rockitman

Brey-Krause has has an adaptable seat back brace that attaches to harness bars or in this case the harness bar portion of the Tech Equip. roll bar. Part #R-9019. It seems that this could be attached to the bar to form a more solid backing between the bar and the GT3 seat headrest area. Since I have so little room between the bar and the head rest portion of the seat, it seems to me that the harness bar cross member would suffice adequately. If my seat position was more towards the front and there was a significant gap between the cross member and the head rest, I would probably recommend the support system since the head rest area is the most flexible portion of the GT3 seat. Good food for thought...