So here is what the dealer told me...
09-24-2010, 04:22 PM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
So here is what the dealer told me...
So I take my nice, new to me, GT3 to the dealership for some issues I noticed and this is what happened.
Issues:
1) I am seeing some seepage from under the engine.
2) There is a noise coming from the front end suspension when I turn or the spring changes load at very low speeds. It soulds like a spring adjusting positions. I imagine I don't hear it at higher speeds due to engine noise.
3) I am seeing small cracks on the front rotors that are about 2-3 mm from some of the holes in the rotors.
4) inside of the rear tires are cording. Is there something wrong with the rear end? Camber? The car is bone stock on original OEM tires.
Reply:
1) They did not that there is confirmed seepage between the block and the transmission, but seepage is ok....a leak is not. The factory allows for some of this to take place. They want to put a die in the oil and have me drive it around a bit so they can tell if there is a problem with the RMS.
2) The noise is normal and expected in these cars after 3-4 years.
3) The rotors are fine. They tend to do this in these cars but it is difficult to diagnose since these cars are tracked all the time and heavy heat and loads will do this to the rotors. They can replace them, but at my expense. And by the way, there is a new part number for an "upgraded/improved" OEM rotor that we would use.
4) The tires need to be replaced and an alignment done. Visual inspection shows nothing looks bent or broken. Total estimate $1,536 for parts and labor.
My opinions:
1) I have never heard of a MFG saying any oil leaving the engine is a good thing. They acknowledge that it looks like a RMS, but they want to see where it is coming from, for sure.
2) I have no idea, but is sounds like BS to me.
3) I have read on the forum about the front rotors and my question is this, if the original rotor is not defective, why come out with a revised/upgraded/improved rotor? Would that not mean that they should perform a warranty replacement?
4) It is not normal for the rear tires to cord after 6k miles. They won't do anything more than a visual inspection to diagnose the problem. They will charge $259.99 for the alignment if they don't find a problem other than the car being out of alignment. If they do, they will warranty the alignment. I suspect they will say the camber is off and adjust the toe of the car claiming it is just out of alignment.
The kicker:
This car was purchased and given a CPO status. I have all the paperwork to prove it and the dealership confirms that it should have had a CPO warranty as it was paid for. The dealership, mysteriously, didn't get this turned in and somehow , "the CPO paperwork never got punched." So the dealership is saying they will warranty the car themselves just like the CPO warranty does...which runs out in November. The dealership that is looking at the car now is the original dealership that sold the car and was suppose to do the CPO.
Looking forward the your input.
Issues:
1) I am seeing some seepage from under the engine.
2) There is a noise coming from the front end suspension when I turn or the spring changes load at very low speeds. It soulds like a spring adjusting positions. I imagine I don't hear it at higher speeds due to engine noise.
3) I am seeing small cracks on the front rotors that are about 2-3 mm from some of the holes in the rotors.
4) inside of the rear tires are cording. Is there something wrong with the rear end? Camber? The car is bone stock on original OEM tires.
Reply:
1) They did not that there is confirmed seepage between the block and the transmission, but seepage is ok....a leak is not. The factory allows for some of this to take place. They want to put a die in the oil and have me drive it around a bit so they can tell if there is a problem with the RMS.
2) The noise is normal and expected in these cars after 3-4 years.
3) The rotors are fine. They tend to do this in these cars but it is difficult to diagnose since these cars are tracked all the time and heavy heat and loads will do this to the rotors. They can replace them, but at my expense. And by the way, there is a new part number for an "upgraded/improved" OEM rotor that we would use.
4) The tires need to be replaced and an alignment done. Visual inspection shows nothing looks bent or broken. Total estimate $1,536 for parts and labor.
My opinions:
1) I have never heard of a MFG saying any oil leaving the engine is a good thing. They acknowledge that it looks like a RMS, but they want to see where it is coming from, for sure.
2) I have no idea, but is sounds like BS to me.
3) I have read on the forum about the front rotors and my question is this, if the original rotor is not defective, why come out with a revised/upgraded/improved rotor? Would that not mean that they should perform a warranty replacement?
4) It is not normal for the rear tires to cord after 6k miles. They won't do anything more than a visual inspection to diagnose the problem. They will charge $259.99 for the alignment if they don't find a problem other than the car being out of alignment. If they do, they will warranty the alignment. I suspect they will say the camber is off and adjust the toe of the car claiming it is just out of alignment.
The kicker:
This car was purchased and given a CPO status. I have all the paperwork to prove it and the dealership confirms that it should have had a CPO warranty as it was paid for. The dealership, mysteriously, didn't get this turned in and somehow , "the CPO paperwork never got punched." So the dealership is saying they will warranty the car themselves just like the CPO warranty does...which runs out in November. The dealership that is looking at the car now is the original dealership that sold the car and was suppose to do the CPO.
Looking forward the your input.
09-24-2010, 04:57 PM
#3
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1)
Seepage is technically a small leak, small but a leak nonetheless . No leaks are considered normal in the workshop manual at any seals. With that said maybe it will back down once you start driving more maybe not. You have until November to track it down and decide if its worth the trouble of a new one under warranty.
2)
It’s normal the springs rotate in the perch and make noise forget about it Can happen in a brand new GT3 as well.
3)
Factory accepts cracks up to 5mm. They are caused from thermal stress.
4)
Yes 6000m can cord tyres depending on driving style and also if camber and toe were not correct.
5) In my opinion if the car passed the 100+-point CPO inspection it shouldn’t have had corded tyres or any oil leaks. Probably it didn’t, some dealers pass their own cars only in papers in order to sell quickly and deal with the problems later.
Hope it helps
John
Seepage is technically a small leak, small but a leak nonetheless . No leaks are considered normal in the workshop manual at any seals. With that said maybe it will back down once you start driving more maybe not. You have until November to track it down and decide if its worth the trouble of a new one under warranty.
2)
It’s normal the springs rotate in the perch and make noise forget about it Can happen in a brand new GT3 as well.
3)
Factory accepts cracks up to 5mm. They are caused from thermal stress.
4)
Yes 6000m can cord tyres depending on driving style and also if camber and toe were not correct.
5) In my opinion if the car passed the 100+-point CPO inspection it shouldn’t have had corded tyres or any oil leaks. Probably it didn’t, some dealers pass their own cars only in papers in order to sell quickly and deal with the problems later.
Hope it helps
John
09-24-2010, 05:55 PM
#6
Racer
Thread Starter
(Did I say that out loud?)
Trending Topics
09-24-2010, 06:09 PM
#8
Racer
Thread Starter
1)
Seepage is technically a small leak, small but a leak nonetheless . No leaks are considered normal in the workshop manual at any seals. With that said maybe it will back down once you start driving more maybe not. You have until November to track it down and decide if its worth the trouble of a new one under warranty.
2)
It’s normal the springs rotate in the perch and make noise forget about it Can happen in a brand new GT3 as well.
3)
Factory accepts cracks up to 5mm. They are caused from thermal stress.
4)
Yes 6000m can cord tyres depending on driving style and also if camber and toe were not correct.
5) In my opinion if the car passed the 100+-point CPO inspection it shouldn’t have had corded tyres or any oil leaks. Probably it didn’t, some dealers pass their own cars only in papers in order to sell quickly and deal with the problems later.
Hope it helps
John
Seepage is technically a small leak, small but a leak nonetheless . No leaks are considered normal in the workshop manual at any seals. With that said maybe it will back down once you start driving more maybe not. You have until November to track it down and decide if its worth the trouble of a new one under warranty.
2)
It’s normal the springs rotate in the perch and make noise forget about it Can happen in a brand new GT3 as well.
3)
Factory accepts cracks up to 5mm. They are caused from thermal stress.
4)
Yes 6000m can cord tyres depending on driving style and also if camber and toe were not correct.
5) In my opinion if the car passed the 100+-point CPO inspection it shouldn’t have had corded tyres or any oil leaks. Probably it didn’t, some dealers pass their own cars only in papers in order to sell quickly and deal with the problems later.
Hope it helps
John
1) Seeing that the warranty is up in November, I am positive a leak will start in October. However, I called BS on him saying please produce documentation that shows that ANY fluid seepage/leak is acceptable. He is suppose to get back to me on that one.
2) Wow, that one does surprise me.
3) I suspected that small cracks were basically ok due to heat and stress. I didn't know that up to 5mm is acceptible. I will keep an eye on them, but probably go to slotted rotors when these are done.
4) I may photo the tires and show you. There is clearly a camber and toe issue. The tread is clearly worn toward the inside and there is plenty of tread left in the middle and outside edges. Like I said, I suspect they will just say it was out of alignment.
5) I have no doubt that this was a paper CPO, if the actual inspection was really done at all. I have since learned that there seems to be a pattern to this happening at this one fine establishment. Hmmmmm......
I guess there is always the last resort of making a call to Porsche and exposing the dealership's actions. But my goal is not to hand the dealership out to dry...that is, unless they don't make good on a warranty fix that is rightious.
Now I was considering doing the rear links (dog bones) etc. and an algnment with a corner balance, so I am not sure this is even worth dragging them over the coals on.
09-24-2010, 06:19 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
What John (911Slow) mentioned is pretty bang on.
These are all GT3 quirks. Welcome to the club.
RMS leaks appear to be more frequent in cars that get little use... and really not that big of a deal. Many just put up with it the annoyance of a small drip/week.
Cracked rotors ok until cracks close to joining each other.
Springs rotating in perch also a common noise.
Sounds like you have a proper GT3 !!
These are all GT3 quirks. Welcome to the club.
RMS leaks appear to be more frequent in cars that get little use... and really not that big of a deal. Many just put up with it the annoyance of a small drip/week.
Cracked rotors ok until cracks close to joining each other.
Springs rotating in perch also a common noise.
Sounds like you have a proper GT3 !!
09-24-2010, 06:21 PM
#11
Racer
Thread Starter
I have seen that page and it is helpful, but I still question why the rotor revision if it was MFG correctly to begin with?
09-24-2010, 06:24 PM
#12
Racer
Thread Starter
What John (911Slow) mentioned is pretty bang on.
These are all GT3 quirks. Welcome to the club.
RMS leaks appear to be more frequent in cars that get little use... and really not that big of a deal. Many just put up with it the annoyance of a small drip/week.
Cracked rotors ok until cracks close to joining each other.
Springs rotating in perch also a common noise.
Sounds like you have a proper GT3 !!
These are all GT3 quirks. Welcome to the club.
RMS leaks appear to be more frequent in cars that get little use... and really not that big of a deal. Many just put up with it the annoyance of a small drip/week.
Cracked rotors ok until cracks close to joining each other.
Springs rotating in perch also a common noise.
Sounds like you have a proper GT3 !!
Now I need some tires and an alignment so I can get the rear corrected and start the courting process with her!
09-24-2010, 06:58 PM
#13
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1) These cars have been seeping/leaking for decades. PCNA won't take any action until it's forming an active leak (drips).
2) Springs go "boing" and you get all sorts of noises from a stiff car. Typical.
3) Rotors are fine. Toss when 3 holes connect or cracks are 7+mm long or a crack goes to the edge. btw, I cracked brand new rotors in 1 day at the track. Porsche are constantly revising manufacturing process to save $$$, update this or that. No big deal.
4) 6000 miles for a set of tires is pretty decent. I've gone through 8 sets in 18,000 miles.
Figure out what you want to do with the car and get an alignment to match with your new tires on the car. Get out and drive to reduce engine seepage. Listen to the engine and ignore any "boinks" you may hear and trust that your mildly cracked rotors will stop you faster than most cars on the road.
Cheers,
2) Springs go "boing" and you get all sorts of noises from a stiff car. Typical.
3) Rotors are fine. Toss when 3 holes connect or cracks are 7+mm long or a crack goes to the edge. btw, I cracked brand new rotors in 1 day at the track. Porsche are constantly revising manufacturing process to save $$$, update this or that. No big deal.
4) 6000 miles for a set of tires is pretty decent. I've gone through 8 sets in 18,000 miles.
Figure out what you want to do with the car and get an alignment to match with your new tires on the car. Get out and drive to reduce engine seepage. Listen to the engine and ignore any "boinks" you may hear and trust that your mildly cracked rotors will stop you faster than most cars on the road.
Cheers,
09-24-2010, 07:32 PM
#14
Racer
Thread Starter
So it shall be written, so it shall be done.
I will get the car back tomorrow and get some tires on it.
From there, go get the corner balance and alignment done with the dog bones.
After that.........HAMMER DOWN!
I will get the car back tomorrow and get some tires on it.
From there, go get the corner balance and alignment done with the dog bones.
After that.........HAMMER DOWN!
09-24-2010, 07:52 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Fooshe - Rotors are a wear item.
Since you are posting this in the 996/GT3 forum I assume the car is a few years old. I would replace the tires as a matter of good practice just because they are a few years old. Wouldn't matter if they were corded or how many miles were on them.
One thing to be aware of: CPO does not require an alignment. GT3 is a very still chassis and that puts more load on the suspension bits. Thats what makes the GT3 a wonderful car. But the alignment will get knocked off after a while. I would align the car annually even if it were just a street car and especially a GT3. Because I track my GT3 (A LOT), I have the car aligned frequently.
So..... When I purchased my GT3 some years ago - CPO from a dealer in the midwest (I drove 800 miles to get the car I wanted). I went straight to my own dealer had the car aligned and replaced the tires which were then about 3 years old.
CPO is worth something though:
The dealer in Ohio screwed up and let the battery die while the car was in the showroom. That happens, but when they jump started it they mixed the polarity to the battery. How do I know?? Getting the polarity wrong will damage the DME. The car drove fine on the street. Drove a couple thousand miles just driving home and then to my first track event with it. The DME damage showed ONLY during sustained runs at high rev's (as one might have at the track) The fault caused the engine to die at around 6800K and registered DME fault. But the DME was replaced under the CPO warranty.
Since you are posting this in the 996/GT3 forum I assume the car is a few years old. I would replace the tires as a matter of good practice just because they are a few years old. Wouldn't matter if they were corded or how many miles were on them.
One thing to be aware of: CPO does not require an alignment. GT3 is a very still chassis and that puts more load on the suspension bits. Thats what makes the GT3 a wonderful car. But the alignment will get knocked off after a while. I would align the car annually even if it were just a street car and especially a GT3. Because I track my GT3 (A LOT), I have the car aligned frequently.
So..... When I purchased my GT3 some years ago - CPO from a dealer in the midwest (I drove 800 miles to get the car I wanted). I went straight to my own dealer had the car aligned and replaced the tires which were then about 3 years old.
CPO is worth something though:
The dealer in Ohio screwed up and let the battery die while the car was in the showroom. That happens, but when they jump started it they mixed the polarity to the battery. How do I know?? Getting the polarity wrong will damage the DME. The car drove fine on the street. Drove a couple thousand miles just driving home and then to my first track event with it. The DME damage showed ONLY during sustained runs at high rev's (as one might have at the track) The fault caused the engine to die at around 6800K and registered DME fault. But the DME was replaced under the CPO warranty.
