Number54

I finally managed to speak to someone at Jerry Woods! It was nice that despite being so busy, they answered all my questions, and didn't rush me off the phone.

They said that the best thing would be to get a dealer to pull the diagnostics, and they could do the rest. But I was advised to get a list of things for them to do.

So here's the list:

1. Compression test. This was recommended, but no leak-down.
2. Check for collision, frame damage, hidden repairs.
3. Brakes and suspension lookover.
4. Anything that may be a safety concern.
5. Quick test drive with subjective opinion about the condition.

And here's what's not on the list (with the reason why):

1. Clutch/gearbox. Takes too long to get to these. But they offered to do give me a subjective opinion of the condition based on a quick test drive. Since I am not familiar with these cars, it's hard for me to tell if the clutch/gearbox are not exactly right.

2. LSD. It's hard to tell the condition without doing enough work to warrant replacing the clutch pack anyway. I'll just take it to the track and see what gives.

3. RMS. Again, too hard to get to that during a 2 to 3-hour PPI. But shouldn't it be fairly obvious with signs of leakage?

How does all this sound? Is there anything else I should ask for?

Thanks.

mooty

if clutch/gearbox is dying, they will feel it. but i think what they are saying is that if it is STARTING to go, then it may not be evident YET.

LSD, the jack up car and turn the wheels technique is not accurate. the breakaway tq on these cars are pretty low. you have to drive it on track to see how it feels and even then it may not be evident as most of the wt of the car is on the rear so it will squat to get you out of the turn making you think LSD is fine when it may not be.

RMS if the leak is huge, yes, you can see it. but RMS leak is usually not much, you see it after you park the car for a day or two. if that's the case, the leaking area may not have been caked by oil.

PPI is not a "catch all" thing. it's a good through once over and see if something major is f'd up.

you most likely spoke with rich walton at jerry woods. both jerry and rich are great. and this is one of the most highly regarded shop in the country. they dont mess around. you be amazed at some of the cars they have hidden in there. i have seen a Rorh's GT1, vintage coco cola race car, you name it. they dont mess around there.

996FLT6

Mooty- didn't they have the flying lizard livery graphic car? That is beautiful. Only at the track u will notice if LSD is working properly(felt fine at the street). Test drive will probably look for smoothness of shifts(if syncros are worn)/alignment/clutch engagement( they mite do a dump the clutch launch to check for clutch slippage(just joking)/funny noises from engine bay etc. Are u going to let the cat out of the bag and tell us which car ie color : ). Mike

Macster

Can you have you ridden in the car, driven the car? A nice 15 mile test ride followed by a test drive following the same route is very nice. Be sure you insist the owner/salesman takes a variety of roads, from city to highway.

At cold start let engine idle with engine cover open give a listen as you walk around car looking at the body panels, paint, etc. Pay attention to the way the idle smooths out, and the idle speed drops.

Once engine has some heat in it then you go for a test ride. You want to ride so you can pay attention to the engine and the way the car rides, feels, sounds.

Once back have car parked and let it idle while you walk around again checking for noises. Also, you want to give any fluids a chance to create drops/puddles.

Then you take the car for a test drive. No need to thrash it -- best if you can get owners/salesman to put the small whip to the engine -- but you do want to use as much of the engine's rev band as possible. Accelerate up through the gears. Try to get the driver to use as much throttle as possible. You of course don't want him to dump teh clutch and slam the gear shift into the next higher gear like he's some kind of manic but you want the engine to be driven relatively hard. The worst test ride/drive is around the block with the engine never seeing more than 3K (if that) and not even getting up to temperature.

Also, use the brakes, relatively hard. No need to trigger ABS or lock wheels but make sure car stops well. Then use brakes lightly to check if brakes pulse.

You want to ensure the check engine light comes on when the key turned on and then goes off when the engine starts (along with of course all warning lights). Then you want to run the car long enough to give the engine controller a chance to flag any misfires.

The engine controller constantly monitors each cylinder for the proper level of performance. Each firing stroke accelerates the crankshaft and there's a crankshaft sensor that is used to help the engine controller measure this acceleration or lack of it. If the acceleration is weak (or stronger than the other cylinders) the engine controlller will turn on the CEL and log one or more misfire codes.

This makes a compression test superfluous. If the engine has subpar compression in any cylinder the engine controller will flag a misfire code.

But you have to drive the car long enough to give the engine controller time to catch the misfires. If the engine controller error codes were erased just before you viewed the car it can take based on my experience around 30 miles of driving before the misfire monitor can have a chance to catch any misfires.

While you're riding in the car, then driving the car, you can pay attention to the clutch action, how smoothly the car pulls away, and how the car shifts. Then when you get a chance to drive the car you get to feel this for yourself.

Checking for poor paint or body work a good idea.

The test ride/drive will give you some idea of the car's alignment. Unless owner very meticulous the alignment's probably off. Budget for an alignment unless one done within weeks and owner has paperwork for it. Also, the tires will tell you something about the car's alignment and how the car was driven. Also the condition of the brakes tells you something.

Added: Of course having dealer pull the overrev counts is important. While at it have dealer check for for any pending error codes. If possible have dealer tech pull various info related to how many warmups since error codes cleared. If none or low, someone may be trying to hide something. If battery just replaced though this may account for the recent error code clear.

Sincerely,

Macster.

RollingArt

They sure did. Last summer. These pics were taken at Jerry Woods Racing.

I was told car was for sale if anyone's interested.

Check it out. There's a little Riviera Blue mixed into that paint scheme. That's a great graphics job.



Phil

Number54

Thanks all, lots of good info.

@mooty: Yeah, LSD condition will be determined at the track. We'll see. No biggie I guess since I'll have to change it at some point anyway. I didn't know the RMS leaks only left small signs, I guess that's both good and bad. The car I'm (hopefully) buying has an extended warranty, so I presume that should be covered. Yeah, I know PPI is not a 100% thing, it's just that I'm so unfamiliar with these cars that I don't trust myself to check one out! I'm not sure who I spoke to, Jerry or Rich, but I was really impressed. Yup, they're definitely not messing around. Nice people.

@996FLT6: Haha, yes, I'm sure the owner would love for Jerry Woods to side-step the clutch and see what gives! I wanted them to do a test-drive, like you said, because they know what it's supposed to feel like. I have only had very limited driver time, so I'm not capable of making comparisons. Let it out of the bag? Sure, it's silver (the only thing I don't like), you all know it, used to belong to Carnerd.

@Macster: Nope haven't driven the car. If scheduling works out, I will on Sunday That's a ton of great info, thanks a lot. I have copy-pasted all that into a little document I'm preparing. As far as compression testing, JWE said (and I need to get more clarification) that the difference between cylinders is important even though a severe issue would trigger a misfire.

@RollingArt: Nice, one of the the flying lizard cars. I can't say I was thrilled when the first pictures of them came out, I prefer the plain look of the predecessor. But I can't deny it's an amazing paint-job. Hey, I just remembered an article I read, isn't that the car they dumped because the "chassis is worn"?

Macster

The assumption is -- and it is only an assumption -- that the difference in compression that would raise a red flag when detected by a traditional compression test would also result in a difference in the cylinder's output that would flag a misfire.

However, as I said above, it is only an assumption. I have no insight into the the metrics Porsche uses to flag a misfire.

On a related note: I wonder how a compression test fares with these new engines that have not only variable intake valve timing but variable valve lift that purposely allows some flow of the combustion chamber gases back into the intake manifold for purposes of reducing the efficiency of the combustion for the sake of low NoX production?

Does this valve timing and lift variation cause a lower pressure value during a compression test? Is there some way during a compression test to disable this feature and force intake valve timing to its normal timing and select full valve lift?

Or does it matter?

Sincerely,

Macster.

Number54

^^^ Man, I have no idea about the questions you raise! But I will ask Jerry Woods and post the info.

mooty

did i mention this car to you?
the current owner is kind of like my neighbor.
i have seen the car when kirby (carnerd) had it. it was clean! and low miler i recall.

Number54

^^^ Nope, maybe you told him, who contacted me?

Yup, it's clean (one tiny scratch), low miles, interior track mods, plus some little things. The last car I looked at was prettier, immaculate black/black and PCCB, but this car is better suited to my purposes. I think all it needs is a brake flush before hitting t-hill. Of course I don't have the car yet...

996FLT6

It has the euro seats rt? Your ready to go : ). Please get fast soon- I need rabbits : ). Mike

gooner

yep its my car that i bought off colby a year ago - he set it up well with Gt3 euro seats and GMG roll bar amongst other things - if it gets sold may trade up to 7GT3 so if any local let me know.

Number54

^^^ Yup, euro seats + gmg cage + schroth 6pt harness.

Haha, I'll try to get fast ASAP. I pull 2:14s at t-hill in the dry with minimal/no traffic in my audi, so we'll see... In my defense, it's 3700lbs, AWD, and really front-heavy. I worry a bit that it'll take some massive adjustments to drive the gt3 though. My car easily understeers without enough trailbraking, and when it pushes too much a lift pulls it back on-line. I fear I'll do that out of habit in the gt3, and then I'll be doing the diagonal backwards thing I always see with p-cars!

mooty

do not lift in 911's just breath on the throttle. wiggle your big toe a bit then the front will tuck in.
if you lift, you will follow mike (996flt6) right into dirt.

mooty

i just sold mine!