Track Camber Settings with slicks
09-18-2007, 01:24 PM
#46
Drifting
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Boqueron
I think you better read the Manthey catalogue for suspension parts, much cheaper.....
Almost any Öhlins solution is good, but I would have gone for the TTX46 McP solution with double digressive valving - but I don't know how the cost difference works out (thank you Mr Öhlins).
There are several reasons why you may be having problems with the ABS, some of them are related to the fact that you are braking and cornering with greater G-Force than the ABS expects and it behaves in unhelpful ways as a result. The standard ABS is programmed to cope with all sorts of conditions, including loose and packed snow, ice, gravel and leaves, most of which do not apply on the race track. The standard system also makes assumptions about the maximum retardation achievable, maximum controlled lateral G-force and wheel speed differentials as well as slip angles. If possible, find somebody with a 996 Cup, running dry slicks and ask if you can have a few laps in that, you will find the brakes different in their behaviour. Under those circumstances I can get -1.8 on slicks coming into T1 at Catalunya, the best I can get on street tyres is -1.4 with high performance brakes and the best in a stock 996 GT3 was, I think -1.1, but it may have been closer to -1.4.
To get these high G-forces, you have to brake as hard as you can at maximum speed, with a good front-rear balance this is OK, and means you can pass on the outside entering the corner and then cut across aiming for the exit and turn two with the rear end moving to help you get organised for the next long fast sweeper, which doesn't need much brakes but a fast exit to set you up for the next short straight and another big brake effort for the right-hander.
R+C
I think you better read the Manthey catalogue for suspension parts, much cheaper.....
Almost any Öhlins solution is good, but I would have gone for the TTX46 McP solution with double digressive valving - but I don't know how the cost difference works out (thank you Mr Öhlins).
There are several reasons why you may be having problems with the ABS, some of them are related to the fact that you are braking and cornering with greater G-Force than the ABS expects and it behaves in unhelpful ways as a result. The standard ABS is programmed to cope with all sorts of conditions, including loose and packed snow, ice, gravel and leaves, most of which do not apply on the race track. The standard system also makes assumptions about the maximum retardation achievable, maximum controlled lateral G-force and wheel speed differentials as well as slip angles. If possible, find somebody with a 996 Cup, running dry slicks and ask if you can have a few laps in that, you will find the brakes different in their behaviour. Under those circumstances I can get -1.8 on slicks coming into T1 at Catalunya, the best I can get on street tyres is -1.4 with high performance brakes and the best in a stock 996 GT3 was, I think -1.1, but it may have been closer to -1.4.
To get these high G-forces, you have to brake as hard as you can at maximum speed, with a good front-rear balance this is OK, and means you can pass on the outside entering the corner and then cut across aiming for the exit and turn two with the rear end moving to help you get organised for the next long fast sweeper, which doesn't need much brakes but a fast exit to set you up for the next short straight and another big brake effort for the right-hander.
R+C
09-18-2007, 02:18 PM
#49
Rennlist Member
3 words.....lost in translation.
What you are failing to do is provide the data points that is requested (temps). Sure, slicks can make a car "stick" to the road better. But in order to take advantage of them, you need to have the ar setup properly. Not only do you not have probe pyrometer reading, you fail to have the proper setup for the car. You stock suspension is NOT built to handle slicks. The stress level you place on the car could very well be catastrophic from a part failing.
Over the past several weeks, you talk about taking the car to 10/10th and how easy slicks are to drive, etc., etc., etc, yet you also talk about all the offs you have had. That is not the indication of somebody that has mastered the car even in it's stock form and are confusing 10/10ths with exceeding the control envelope.
I think you are confusing us trying to help you by asking for specific data which could steer you in the right direction. FYI...this is not a game, this is a sport that has very serious inherent danger and only through proper setup can you minimize the risks.
To each his own and I wish you luck in your motorsports. Enjoy your slicks.
ps. the world doesn't need another smart ***. that comes clear though in your posting regardless of the language difference.
What you are failing to do is provide the data points that is requested (temps). Sure, slicks can make a car "stick" to the road better. But in order to take advantage of them, you need to have the ar setup properly. Not only do you not have probe pyrometer reading, you fail to have the proper setup for the car. You stock suspension is NOT built to handle slicks. The stress level you place on the car could very well be catastrophic from a part failing.
Over the past several weeks, you talk about taking the car to 10/10th and how easy slicks are to drive, etc., etc., etc, yet you also talk about all the offs you have had. That is not the indication of somebody that has mastered the car even in it's stock form and are confusing 10/10ths with exceeding the control envelope.
I think you are confusing us trying to help you by asking for specific data which could steer you in the right direction. FYI...this is not a game, this is a sport that has very serious inherent danger and only through proper setup can you minimize the risks.
To each his own and I wish you luck in your motorsports. Enjoy your slicks.
ps. the world doesn't need another smart ***. that comes clear though in your posting regardless of the language difference.
I find your posts very informative and I think your a great contributor to this site but aren't you going a little overboard here?
Do you have personal experience with running slicks on a GT3 with stock suspension?
Obviously the OP has, and the results look like it's quite contrary to what you are preaching...
I'm not saying you're wrong or anything (hell, I have absolutely no knowledge nor experience regarding this) and I'm all for a good conversation.
But shouldn't you take a little bit different approach to this debate?
Just chill out for a second and continue the conversation in a constructive manner, please!
I like reading what you guys write!!!
09-18-2007, 02:29 PM
#50
Nordschleife Master
My bad. Just realized that instead of providing proper feedback and information that is ACCURATE that I should go ahead and just tell the OP what a great driver he is and how great the slicks work with the car. Delusion is a great thing isn't it?
Listen, you guys can't have it both ways. Either you want info to HELP with the original posting or you can be coddled. Please state that in the beginning and we can go from there.
And as for needing to chill out or going overboard, that didn't happen until BOQUERON thought it would be perfectly ok to go passive aggressive with his posting (#44).
Actually I do have experience with all of these combinations and have actually not just gone on subjective personal anecdotes but consulted with engineers at TRG for this as well. Further, the probe pyrometer readings are a dead giveaway as to what the tires are doing (or not doing) properly.
FYI.....my slicks are sitting in my garage until I can get the proper bits installed into my suspension. Heck, the car has trouble with R-comps without proper settings. You CAN though get away with R-comps without serious changes to the suspension but the stickiness of a slick takes it to a whole 'nother level. To often, guys go to stickier tires (r-comps and slicks) to GO FAST yet all that does is mask deficiencies in skill. This is one reason I was on street tires for almost 3 years between my CAB and my GT3 before I made the move to R-comps was that I wanted to make damn sure I knew the car and could drive it near the edge AND control it. That has made me a better driver. I can honestly say I haven't had an "off" because I was driving at 10/10ths. The number of offs BOQU has reported recently is a clear indication of further seat time is needed to LEARN the car further.
His results are self-serving and really has no care as to what is tried to be accomplished here to get his setup properly.
Let me ask you this. Do you think the suspension of the GT3 is setup for slicks right out of the box (stock)?
***UPDATE***
Boqueron and I have chatted and it (our previous banter within this thread) really was LOST IN TRANSLATION! We were able to (over PM) to understand fully what eachother was trying to say without trying to interpret tone or malice. Damn, the whole language/translation thing is really overlooked here very often as we often forget that this forum is WORDLWIDE. Anyway, we are both cool and enjoy chatting on this fourm. So those of y'all that like to pile on, you can stand down.
Listen, you guys can't have it both ways. Either you want info to HELP with the original posting or you can be coddled. Please state that in the beginning and we can go from there.
And as for needing to chill out or going overboard, that didn't happen until BOQUERON thought it would be perfectly ok to go passive aggressive with his posting (#44).
Actually I do have experience with all of these combinations and have actually not just gone on subjective personal anecdotes but consulted with engineers at TRG for this as well. Further, the probe pyrometer readings are a dead giveaway as to what the tires are doing (or not doing) properly.
FYI.....my slicks are sitting in my garage until I can get the proper bits installed into my suspension. Heck, the car has trouble with R-comps without proper settings. You CAN though get away with R-comps without serious changes to the suspension but the stickiness of a slick takes it to a whole 'nother level. To often, guys go to stickier tires (r-comps and slicks) to GO FAST yet all that does is mask deficiencies in skill. This is one reason I was on street tires for almost 3 years between my CAB and my GT3 before I made the move to R-comps was that I wanted to make damn sure I knew the car and could drive it near the edge AND control it. That has made me a better driver. I can honestly say I haven't had an "off" because I was driving at 10/10ths. The number of offs BOQU has reported recently is a clear indication of further seat time is needed to LEARN the car further.
His results are self-serving and really has no care as to what is tried to be accomplished here to get his setup properly.
Let me ask you this. Do you think the suspension of the GT3 is setup for slicks right out of the box (stock)?
***UPDATE***
Boqueron and I have chatted and it (our previous banter within this thread) really was LOST IN TRANSLATION! We were able to (over PM) to understand fully what eachother was trying to say without trying to interpret tone or malice. Damn, the whole language/translation thing is really overlooked here very often as we often forget that this forum is WORDLWIDE. Anyway, we are both cool and enjoy chatting on this fourm. So those of y'all that like to pile on, you can stand down.
Last edited by LVDell; 09-18-2007 at 04:51 PM.
09-23-2007, 04:17 AM
#53
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Rickard,
To be exact, I discovered that I did not have the LSD working the morning BEFORE my first track day with slicks.... THe LSD was dead BEFORE putting the slicks...
To be exact, I discovered that I did not have the LSD working the morning BEFORE my first track day with slicks.... THe LSD was dead BEFORE putting the slicks...
09-25-2007, 02:45 PM
#56
I don't mean to hijack this argument but I thought ABS just measures wheel rpms and gets involved (softens brake fluid pressure) when it sences lock up
in relation to the other wheels. Why would it care what the tires were made of? Or what the road surface was? Am I under the mistaken impression that
only revolutions per mile of the tires is the only things that can screw up ABS?
Big tires with 823 rev per mile and one goofy tire of a smaller diameter 781
would cause problems. (fool the computer into slowing the smaller faster wheel )
in relation to the other wheels. Why would it care what the tires were made of? Or what the road surface was? Am I under the mistaken impression that
only revolutions per mile of the tires is the only things that can screw up ABS?
Big tires with 823 rev per mile and one goofy tire of a smaller diameter 781
would cause problems. (fool the computer into slowing the smaller faster wheel )
09-25-2007, 03:26 PM
#57
Drifting
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I don't mean to hijack this argument but I thought ABS just measures wheel rpms and gets involved (softens brake fluid pressure) when it sences lock up
in relation to the other wheels. Why would it care what the tires were made of? Or what the road surface was? Am I under the mistaken impression that
only revolutions per mile of the tires is the only things that can screw up ABS?
Big tires with 823 rev per mile and one goofy tire of a smaller diameter 781
would cause problems. (fool the computer into slowing the smaller faster wheel )
in relation to the other wheels. Why would it care what the tires were made of? Or what the road surface was? Am I under the mistaken impression that
only revolutions per mile of the tires is the only things that can screw up ABS?
Big tires with 823 rev per mile and one goofy tire of a smaller diameter 781
would cause problems. (fool the computer into slowing the smaller faster wheel )
It tries to work oout what kind or surfaqce you are driving on and alter its actions to suit. On gravel and lose snow, for example, a degree of lock up is beneficial as you build a 'bow wave'.
The latest systems will help you 'steer' round obstacles and maintain stability by locking and releasing the appropriate wheels.
The problem with slicks can arise because they allow greater redardation than the software expects and there have been situations where the system begins to pulse prematurely. So, based on practical experience, most people who co0nvert street based cars to run in the German Endurance Series (VLN) at the Nürburgring remove the standard ABS and replace it with a motorsports one, if there is one available. The calibration of ABS is quite time consuming and expensive.
Now, realise that many of these drivers are much more demanding than the average driver on track, and the circuit is famously demanding on the cars. Therefore, many drivers just doing Track Days on less demanding circuits may never experience these problems. But it is extremely unhelpful when the ANS cuts in when it isn't required to by the circumstances.
R+C
