GT3 vs Noble @ VIR
07-30-2007, 02:13 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
GT3 vs Noble @ VIR
This past weekend I spent at VIR on the North course with NASA. I was running with HPDE2 because it was my first time with NASA but I have been solo at VIR previously with Chin motorsports.
I spent most the time with the Noble and only 30 minutes with the GT3 but the differences were immediately apparent.
Power: GT3 had plenty of power throughout the band, Noble had more power than could be applied and oil temps got above 120C after 15 minutes of hard running
Braking: GT3 brakes were fantastic... "hand of god" would describe it. Noble brakes were good too but lack of ABS made me a bit more timid than the GT3.
Handling: Noble was neutral, stable, predictable and quick, understeered at the limit but trail braking/lift oversteer could be used to balance the car in the turn. GT3 was oversteering significantly, spun it once on turn 7 and put it sideways (recovered) in turn 3. It wasn't predictable and the handling seemed non-linear in its behavior... great concentration was required to go fast and be extra smooth.
This was my first time with the GT3 on the track and the only setup I did was an alignment to the factory spec. I did not even look at how the roll bars were setup. Tire pressures at factory cold spec, didn't use the pyrometer due to lack of time.
Thoughts on how to make the GT3 a bit more predictable? Soften up the rear sway?
Anyone else have thoughts on GT3's on the track vs. mid engine cars?
Thanks!
I spent most the time with the Noble and only 30 minutes with the GT3 but the differences were immediately apparent.
Power: GT3 had plenty of power throughout the band, Noble had more power than could be applied and oil temps got above 120C after 15 minutes of hard running
Braking: GT3 brakes were fantastic... "hand of god" would describe it. Noble brakes were good too but lack of ABS made me a bit more timid than the GT3.
Handling: Noble was neutral, stable, predictable and quick, understeered at the limit but trail braking/lift oversteer could be used to balance the car in the turn. GT3 was oversteering significantly, spun it once on turn 7 and put it sideways (recovered) in turn 3. It wasn't predictable and the handling seemed non-linear in its behavior... great concentration was required to go fast and be extra smooth.
This was my first time with the GT3 on the track and the only setup I did was an alignment to the factory spec. I did not even look at how the roll bars were setup. Tire pressures at factory cold spec, didn't use the pyrometer due to lack of time.
Thoughts on how to make the GT3 a bit more predictable? Soften up the rear sway?
Anyone else have thoughts on GT3's on the track vs. mid engine cars?
Thanks!
Last edited by mtksurfj; 12-19-2018 at 10:12 PM.
07-30-2007, 02:17 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
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I would also like to know how to make the GT more predictable. Spun it last friday in the rain and hit the guard rail. Everything happened so fast that I had zero time to even react it. Posted on other thread. Thanks!
Ross,
Tire pressure set at cold factory specs can be bad. Mine is set at 5psi less than recommended all around. So, warm pressure is 33 F and 39 R. PS2s don't like being over headed that is above 40psi when it's warm. That's what I found out anyway. Curious to see what other's discoveries are.
Originally Posted by rbarna
Tire pressures at factory cold spec, didn't use the pyrometer due to lack of time.
Tire pressure set at cold factory specs can be bad. Mine is set at 5psi less than recommended all around. So, warm pressure is 33 F and 39 R. PS2s don't like being over headed that is above 40psi when it's warm. That's what I found out anyway. Curious to see what other's discoveries are.
07-30-2007, 04:25 PM
#5
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by rbarna
This past weekend I spent at VIR on the North course with NASA. I was running with HPDE2 because it was my first time with NASA but I have been solo at VIR previously with Chin motorsports.
I spent most the time with the Noble and only 30 minutes with the GT3 but the differences were immediately apparent.
Power: GT3 had plenty of power throughout the band, Noble had more power than could be applied and oil temps got above 120C after 15 minutes of hard running
Braking: GT3 brakes were fantastic... "hand of god" would describe it. Noble brakes were good too but lack of ABS made me a bit more timid than the GT3.
Handling: Noble was neutral, stable, predictable and quick, understeered at the limit but trail braking/lift oversteer could be used to balance the car in the turn. GT3 was oversteering significantly, spun it once on turn 7 and put it sideways (recovered) in turn 3. It wasn't predictable and the handling seemed non-linear in its behavior... great concentration was required to go fast and be extra smooth.
This was my first time with the GT3 on the track and the only setup I did was an alignment to the factory spec. I did not even look at how the roll bars were setup. Tire pressures at factory cold spec, didn't use the pyrometer due to lack of time.
Thoughts on how to make the GT3 a bit more predictable? Soften up the rear sway?
Anyone else have thoughts on GT3's on the track vs. mid engine cars?
Thanks!
-Ross
I spent most the time with the Noble and only 30 minutes with the GT3 but the differences were immediately apparent.
Power: GT3 had plenty of power throughout the band, Noble had more power than could be applied and oil temps got above 120C after 15 minutes of hard running
Braking: GT3 brakes were fantastic... "hand of god" would describe it. Noble brakes were good too but lack of ABS made me a bit more timid than the GT3.
Handling: Noble was neutral, stable, predictable and quick, understeered at the limit but trail braking/lift oversteer could be used to balance the car in the turn. GT3 was oversteering significantly, spun it once on turn 7 and put it sideways (recovered) in turn 3. It wasn't predictable and the handling seemed non-linear in its behavior... great concentration was required to go fast and be extra smooth.
This was my first time with the GT3 on the track and the only setup I did was an alignment to the factory spec. I did not even look at how the roll bars were setup. Tire pressures at factory cold spec, didn't use the pyrometer due to lack of time.
Thoughts on how to make the GT3 a bit more predictable? Soften up the rear sway?
Anyone else have thoughts on GT3's on the track vs. mid engine cars?
Thanks!
-Ross
To address a few things you are looking for feedback on.
*T7 on the North Course is VERY hard on the suspension and easy to spin. I wouldn't account that to the car. Just driver error going in too hot.
*I don't buy that the car was oversteering significantly. Not with stock alignment. If anything you were understeering like a pig. Don't get confused bringing the rear around when TB'ing as oversteer (same result though the car didn't oversteer, you did
). TB'ing is a fine dance of slip angles. Tough to get this sucker to oversteer unless you have a better track setup and don't undwind the wheel fast enough.*NASCAR (T3) is a tough one. You have to commit to a DEEP (late) turn-in and you can fly through there. Turn-in too soon and you will pinch it and run out of track-out and instinct tells you to keep the wheel wound and then you're along for the ride
(good ole fashioned rear end step out).*If your car was unpredictable then I would look at your alignment FIRST. When the car is dialed in (AND STAYS) it is a dream to drive. But if it gets thrown out of whack it is a nightmare on the track and you are fighting it all day.
A few tips on your setup for VIR. You really need a ton of neg camber up front (try to get at least -2.5 and if possible get to -3.5). Rear will depend on what size you are running. I need less since I have been running 315's. As far as toe, run a couple mm toe IN on your rear and run neutral up front. Some will tell you to run a bit of toe out but that isn't fun at all on the high speed straights and it only helps with INITIAL turn-in then camber takes over. Not worth the trade-off for me. But this is a driver preference though.
Check to see where your anti-sway bars are. You should be 1 from full stiff.
You didn't say what tires you were running. However, do NOT start at factory cold rec'd pressures. You will be ALL OVER THE PLACE! I'll bet your pressures were well over 40 psi when you came in and that leads to a slip slidin' session
Last edited by LVDell; 07-30-2007 at 05:09 PM.
07-30-2007, 04:37 PM
#6
Three Wheelin'
You need to get some real tires for the GT3 to be truly appreciated on the track. Stock tires will heat up way too fast which will cause oversteer. I was at that event too. I had the grey GT3 in the instructors group. I think I said something to you along the lines of "man, these nobles are a dime a dozen". 
07-30-2007, 04:44 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
As I've already mentioned on this forum, I had a Noble GT03. You can't drive it anything like you drive a GT3. The Noble will turn in quicker (if we leave aside trail braking) and carry more speed into a corner. You can't get on the power nearly as early though.
The noble is also a much easier car to exploit, and more flattering as it has a nice wide envelope (as Lee terms it) within which it will really look after you - you have to try pretty hard to spin one.
When I bought the GT3 having come from an Elise + Noble I thought I'd made a terrible mistake as I really didn't get on with it. It took a few months to reprogram my brain to understand how a 911 drives and begin the long road of learning how to exploit its characteristics. You should persist, but in some ways not worth taking both on a particular trackday as they are different enough that it will probably just confuse things initially.
Once you get used to the GT3 you'll find it easier to hold in a prolonged slide than the Noble.
p.s. you need to sort out your geometry and especially your tyre pressures. If you were on stock cold pressures on cup tyres on track, you were probably 10-15 psi too high at the rear! On cups people here use 32 psi all round hot, on toyo r888s 36 front 38 rear (or around about that) etc. Can't advise for road tyres but no doubt you were well outside their operating parameters, and a 911 will become very snappy with overheated tyres.
The noble is also a much easier car to exploit, and more flattering as it has a nice wide envelope (as Lee terms it) within which it will really look after you - you have to try pretty hard to spin one.
When I bought the GT3 having come from an Elise + Noble I thought I'd made a terrible mistake as I really didn't get on with it. It took a few months to reprogram my brain to understand how a 911 drives and begin the long road of learning how to exploit its characteristics. You should persist, but in some ways not worth taking both on a particular trackday as they are different enough that it will probably just confuse things initially.
Once you get used to the GT3 you'll find it easier to hold in a prolonged slide than the Noble.
p.s. you need to sort out your geometry and especially your tyre pressures. If you were on stock cold pressures on cup tyres on track, you were probably 10-15 psi too high at the rear! On cups people here use 32 psi all round hot, on toyo r888s 36 front 38 rear (or around about that) etc. Can't advise for road tyres but no doubt you were well outside their operating parameters, and a 911 will become very snappy with overheated tyres.
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07-30-2007, 05:07 PM
#8
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Rob in VA
"man, these nobles are a dime a dozen".
Rob, are you heading down to the 1-day event next Thursday with wilderness trail PCA?
07-30-2007, 05:19 PM
#9
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by LVDell
Rob, are you heading down to the 1-day event next Thursday with wilderness trail PCA?
I can't make that event. I'll be back at VIR the last Thursday/Friday with TrackDaze.
07-30-2007, 06:40 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks for the input! I'm definitely in agreement about the possibility that the stock tires (michelin pilot sports) were at too high a cold temp. Honestly, I just jumped in the car and drove it... my friend was driving it the rest of the time and I didn't ask about the tire pressures.
Dell: car was definitely tail happy. I wasn't TB'ing that was only on the Noble. It was my first session with a GT3 so I was only straight line breaking. Basically the GT3 required much quieter, slower and restrained input compared to the noble. But good to hear your input for sure!
The rear roll bar is set to the second to furthest back position. Should I leave it there?
I promise to bring "just" the GT3 to my next event- possibly watkins glen this weekend or in a few... will work out the tire pressures.
Dell: car was definitely tail happy. I wasn't TB'ing that was only on the Noble. It was my first session with a GT3 so I was only straight line breaking. Basically the GT3 required much quieter, slower and restrained input compared to the noble. But good to hear your input for sure!
The rear roll bar is set to the second to furthest back position. Should I leave it there?
I promise to bring "just" the GT3 to my next event- possibly watkins glen this weekend or in a few... will work out the tire pressures.
07-30-2007, 07:27 PM
#11
Nordschleife Master
Well that explains it then. Just jumping in an heading out is a recipe for disaster in these cars. Get it setup properly first and foremost. As for tires, the PS2 is a fantastic track tire if you run a street tire.
If I understand how you are explaining it, then you are 1 from full stiff. As long as when you say 2nd to furthest you mean only one hole between your droplink and the bar. Full stiff is the FIRST hole after the bend in the bar and full SOFT is the last hole at the end of the line.
If you run the street tires start at about 30-32 and aim for 36-38.
If I understand how you are explaining it, then you are 1 from full stiff. As long as when you say 2nd to furthest you mean only one hole between your droplink and the bar. Full stiff is the FIRST hole after the bend in the bar and full SOFT is the last hole at the end of the line.
If you run the street tires start at about 30-32 and aim for 36-38.
08-17-2007, 02:44 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
i'm at watkins glen right now and I've been asking people with the same car and tires as me what they run cold and hot and what they maintain... everyone has a different answer. I'm doing well with hot 32/36.
08-17-2007, 05:39 PM
#13
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by rbarna
i'm at watkins glen right now and I've been asking people with the same car and tires as me what they run cold and hot and what they maintain... everyone has a different answer. I'm doing well with hot 32/36.
08-20-2007, 11:18 AM
#14
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Not doing well means very loose rear end resulting in reduced driver confidence, excessive oversteer and a spin or two as was happening at VIR when I was not the primary driver of the car and didn't look at the tire temps before driving it.
At the Glen this past weekend I concentrated on getting tire temps right and I found that 32/36 hot number the car behaves very neutrally and can be at the limit with tires squeeling all day long with minimal oversteer.
So it's all good.
At the Glen this past weekend I concentrated on getting tire temps right and I found that 32/36 hot number the car behaves very neutrally and can be at the limit with tires squeeling all day long with minimal oversteer.
So it's all good.
08-20-2007, 12:03 PM
#15
Burning Brakes
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I'm not giving up on the car at this point.