Perfomance diff: Sunroof or none
09-03-2006, 11:09 AM
#16
King of Cool
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Well, an expresso machine mounted next to the sat nav would make absolutely no difference in GT3's performance, or 18 cupholders, or maybe a make-up kit for ladies, or built in shaving & moisturizer kit, or whatever crap I can come up with. Add 100 differnet pimpmobile "nice" things and you're faced with 300 extra lbs worth of crap and that makes a difference.
However, the bottom line is, none of these friggin' things should have a place in a sportscar.
However, the bottom line is, none of these friggin' things should have a place in a sportscar.
09-03-2006, 11:56 AM
#17
The Rebel
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finn,
I completely agree!!
Everyone else,
I'd like to know why it is that if someone doesn't like a sportscar to have a sunroof (on principle) then you should buy a race car! Where's the logic?
Those of us that do NOT want the sunroof acknowledge the fact that some people do. And we believe you have the right to order one with it. Why can't the US/NA market have the same right the ROW has? The sunroof IS an option on the ROW GT3. It is not, for me at least, as much about the sunroof as it is about principle and choice (or lack there of).
Can you tell the difference between a sunroof car and a non-sunroof car? YES, I can!
I completely agree!!
Everyone else,
I'd like to know why it is that if someone doesn't like a sportscar to have a sunroof (on principle) then you should buy a race car! Where's the logic?
Those of us that do NOT want the sunroof acknowledge the fact that some people do. And we believe you have the right to order one with it. Why can't the US/NA market have the same right the ROW has? The sunroof IS an option on the ROW GT3. It is not, for me at least, as much about the sunroof as it is about principle and choice (or lack there of).
Can you tell the difference between a sunroof car and a non-sunroof car? YES, I can!
09-03-2006, 12:12 PM
#18
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It appears Porsche is too cheap to "wreck" a few more cars in crash tests to give us the option of no sunroof (or for that matter, adding GT Seats). I'd gladly pay a few hundred dollars more to cover the costs (insignificant on a 100k+ car).
09-03-2006, 12:12 PM
#19
Race Director
Originally Posted by cosmos
I dont want one because it gives up headroom. It also is the worst place for weight. Sunroofs can leak. Sunroofs make noise.
The bottom line is. I WANT TO DECIDE IF I WANT ONE!!
The bottom line is. I WANT TO DECIDE IF I WANT ONE!!
The whole sunroof thing isn't all that amusing when your helmet is pressed tightly against the headliner because the stupid sunroof stole your sorely needed headroom.
09-03-2006, 12:20 PM
#20
This is silly Palting. You could just as easily claim that there's no reason not to have full stereo, sat nav, cupholders, et al, in a GT3 because "it's not a race car." You're missing the point though. It's about the driving experience. You have your comfortable GT quasi-sportscars with the REST of the Porsche lineup. Why can't purists have just one car without all that crap, without people trying to rain on their parade?
I don't get it. People say, "well I don't see what the big deal is, it's just a sunroof." Well, if it matters to purists, why can't that be reason enough? Why push the issue and insist that we're somehow being "silly" to want a pure sportscar the way they used to be?
Racecars these days are very far removed from their street car counterparts, that's just the way it is. It's impossible to have a competitive racecar that's street usable. In the old days, things were different, but that's life. Be that as it may, there are some of us who enjoy that "middle-ground" that exists, akin to James Dean driving to a race in his 550.
Maybe that "middle ground" where the GT3 lies is an anachronism. But some of us enjoy it for what it is. You can call us luddites, or stubborn, or behind the times. But in the words of my teenage cousins, "Whatev!"
I don't get it. People say, "well I don't see what the big deal is, it's just a sunroof." Well, if it matters to purists, why can't that be reason enough? Why push the issue and insist that we're somehow being "silly" to want a pure sportscar the way they used to be?
Racecars these days are very far removed from their street car counterparts, that's just the way it is. It's impossible to have a competitive racecar that's street usable. In the old days, things were different, but that's life. Be that as it may, there are some of us who enjoy that "middle-ground" that exists, akin to James Dean driving to a race in his 550.
Maybe that "middle ground" where the GT3 lies is an anachronism. But some of us enjoy it for what it is. You can call us luddites, or stubborn, or behind the times. But in the words of my teenage cousins, "Whatev!"
09-03-2006, 02:24 PM
#21
I agree with you Palting.
The differences in my lap times will not be due to my sunroof, I'm a ****ty driver!
I do understand the arguments on purity grounds, can't get around it. Poor choice of location for 40 pounds. But, it's a street car, not a race car. Buy a cup car.
What I find funny, is how anyone who takes this argument seriously can buy a GT3RS.
I'm not really bothered by the sunroof. Sure, I'd delete it, but all in all, I could care less. It's a 90% street car for me, and wont impeed my time on the track. Overall, I think this will be the best GT3 yet offered. So it's not perfect. Buy a Ferrari CS if you want perfect.
The differences in my lap times will not be due to my sunroof, I'm a ****ty driver!
I do understand the arguments on purity grounds, can't get around it. Poor choice of location for 40 pounds. But, it's a street car, not a race car. Buy a cup car.
What I find funny, is how anyone who takes this argument seriously can buy a GT3RS.
I'm not really bothered by the sunroof. Sure, I'd delete it, but all in all, I could care less. It's a 90% street car for me, and wont impeed my time on the track. Overall, I think this will be the best GT3 yet offered. So it's not perfect. Buy a Ferrari CS if you want perfect.
09-03-2006, 03:17 PM
#22
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Well, if anything else, this proves that Porsche owners are indeed quite passionate.
While I don't disagree with a lot of the opinions made here, I do strongly disagree with terms like "purists", "no place in a sports car", and the often used term in other posts, "poseur". You want a strip down bare bones car, or a street legal Cup car, that's fine. But don't denigrate the 997 GT3 for what it is just because you can't have what you want. The 997 GT3, with the sunroof, can still do 193 mph and 0-60 in 4.1 secs, and go around road courses whipping almost any other street car out there. Including the 996 GT3.
While I don't disagree with a lot of the opinions made here, I do strongly disagree with terms like "purists", "no place in a sports car", and the often used term in other posts, "poseur". You want a strip down bare bones car, or a street legal Cup car, that's fine. But don't denigrate the 997 GT3 for what it is just because you can't have what you want. The 997 GT3, with the sunroof, can still do 193 mph and 0-60 in 4.1 secs, and go around road courses whipping almost any other street car out there. Including the 996 GT3.
09-03-2006, 03:28 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by Palting
Well, if anything else, this proves that Porsche owners are indeed quite passionate.
While I don't disagree with a lot of the opinions made here, I do strongly disagree with terms like "purists", "no place in a sports car", and the often used term in other posts, "poseur". You want a strip down bare bones car, or a street legal Cup car, that's fine. But don't denigrate the 997 GT3 for what it is just because you can't have what you want. The 997 GT3, with the sunroof, can still do 193 mph and 0-60 in 4.1 secs, and go around road courses whipping almost any other street car out there. Including the 996 GT3.
While I don't disagree with a lot of the opinions made here, I do strongly disagree with terms like "purists", "no place in a sports car", and the often used term in other posts, "poseur". You want a strip down bare bones car, or a street legal Cup car, that's fine. But don't denigrate the 997 GT3 for what it is just because you can't have what you want. The 997 GT3, with the sunroof, can still do 193 mph and 0-60 in 4.1 secs, and go around road courses whipping almost any other street car out there. Including the 996 GT3.
09-04-2006, 09:37 AM
#24
The Rebel
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Originally Posted by Bluehinder
...Poor choice of location for 40 pounds. But, it's a street car, not a race car. Buy a cup car.
[QUOTE=Bluehinder]What I find funny, is how anyone who takes this argument seriously can buy a GT3RS.[/qoute]
Um...the rumor is that the GT3RS will also have the mandatory sunroof in the NA Market.
Originally Posted by Bluehinder
Buy a Ferrari CS if you want perfect.
09-04-2006, 11:29 AM
#25
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Thread Starter
Originally Posted by MJSpeed
Why is it that if someone wants a barebones lightweight sportscar sans sunroof then go buy a cup car...why can't we have the same choices the ROW has?
Porsche has learned an expensive lesson. When they developed the 930 turbo, they sold it here in the US same as ROW. Then, an American killed himself in it because he did not know how to drive it. His widow sued, and won richess in US court, on the grounds that Porsche made a car that was too dangerous.The ROW 997 GT3 RS can come with roll cage, fiberglass seats, 6 point harness. If the same car were here in the US, I am willing to bet that someone who gets a concussion from hitting his unhelmeted head on the roll cage during a parking lot fender bender will sue Porsche. Hence, no such options for the USA, You want them, you have to get them yourself aftermarket, somewhat absolving Porsche of fault. That is the US market, and our litigenous society.
Then there's the US regulations, mostly to protect ourselves from one another. Anyone remember that the first batch of 996 GT3's had to be held up at port for an extra several weeks due to questions regarding bumper height and what not?
When I told my dealer I wanted the 997 GT3, he made a big show of how dangerous the car can be, and how he wasn't sure he would sell anyone the car. Yeah, right, sure, whatever you say, buddy. Only after the show did he take my deposit.
09-04-2006, 11:36 AM
#26
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I completely agree with you gents. Porsche has forgotten how to build svelte cars...
Do a simple calculation: Take the weight/(length x width) of each car and determine its weight per square meter (in kgs). The result adjusts for car size and shows component and design quality: The lighter the better.
On this measure, the results are precicely as expected. Best are the exotics, followed by the aircooleds. Last, by a very long way, is today's crop:
Enzo - 143
Ferrari F40 - 143
McLaren F1 - 145
Ferrari F50 - 148
Pagani Zonda F - 150
CGT- 166
Porsche 993 RS - 168
Corvette Z06 - 169
Porsche 996 GT3 RS - 175
Porsche 997 GT3 - 181
So... the 99x got about 10% heavier over the years (on a like-for-like basis, after adjusting for size) and, inexcusably, on a like-for-like basis, the current "top of the line" model is 10% heavier than a Corvette, a car with much bigger engine, more power and heavier-duty components. Sports car? what a joke. Boulevard cruiser more like it. GT3 needs to lose 10-15% of its bodyfat. Worse still, the CGT weighs about same as the Corvette, at five times the price...
Do a simple calculation: Take the weight/(length x width) of each car and determine its weight per square meter (in kgs). The result adjusts for car size and shows component and design quality: The lighter the better.
On this measure, the results are precicely as expected. Best are the exotics, followed by the aircooleds. Last, by a very long way, is today's crop:
Enzo - 143
Ferrari F40 - 143
McLaren F1 - 145
Ferrari F50 - 148
Pagani Zonda F - 150
CGT- 166
Porsche 993 RS - 168
Corvette Z06 - 169
Porsche 996 GT3 RS - 175
Porsche 997 GT3 - 181
So... the 99x got about 10% heavier over the years (on a like-for-like basis, after adjusting for size) and, inexcusably, on a like-for-like basis, the current "top of the line" model is 10% heavier than a Corvette, a car with much bigger engine, more power and heavier-duty components. Sports car? what a joke. Boulevard cruiser more like it. GT3 needs to lose 10-15% of its bodyfat. Worse still, the CGT weighs about same as the Corvette, at five times the price...
09-04-2006, 12:15 PM
#27
Originally Posted by Palting
To paraphrase an old adage, if there is something wrong, look to one's self first for the fault. As to why ROW Porsches are different from USA Porsches, I believe the fault lies in the USA.
Porsche has learned an expensive lesson. When they developed the 930 turbo, they sold it here in the US same as ROW. Then, an American killed himself in it because he did not know how to drive it. His widow sued, and won richess in US court, on the grounds that Porsche made a car that was too dangerous.The ROW 997 GT3 RS can come with roll cage, fiberglass seats, 6 point harness. If the same car were here in the US, I am willing to bet that someone who gets a concussion from hitting his unhelmeted head on the roll cage during a parking lot fender bender will sue Porsche. Hence, no such options for the USA, You want them, you have to get them yourself aftermarket, somewhat absolving Porsche of fault. That is the US market, and our litigenous society.
Then there's the US regulations, mostly to protect ourselves from one another. Anyone remember that the first batch of 996 GT3's had to be held up at port for an extra several weeks due to questions regarding bumper height and what not?
When I told my dealer I wanted the 997 GT3, he made a big show of how dangerous the car can be, and how he wasn't sure he would sell anyone the car. Yeah, right, sure, whatever you say, buddy. Only after the show did he take my deposit.
Porsche has learned an expensive lesson. When they developed the 930 turbo, they sold it here in the US same as ROW. Then, an American killed himself in it because he did not know how to drive it. His widow sued, and won richess in US court, on the grounds that Porsche made a car that was too dangerous.The ROW 997 GT3 RS can come with roll cage, fiberglass seats, 6 point harness. If the same car were here in the US, I am willing to bet that someone who gets a concussion from hitting his unhelmeted head on the roll cage during a parking lot fender bender will sue Porsche. Hence, no such options for the USA, You want them, you have to get them yourself aftermarket, somewhat absolving Porsche of fault. That is the US market, and our litigenous society.
Then there's the US regulations, mostly to protect ourselves from one another. Anyone remember that the first batch of 996 GT3's had to be held up at port for an extra several weeks due to questions regarding bumper height and what not?
When I told my dealer I wanted the 997 GT3, he made a big show of how dangerous the car can be, and how he wasn't sure he would sell anyone the car. Yeah, right, sure, whatever you say, buddy. Only after the show did he take my deposit.
09-04-2006, 12:20 PM
#28
King of Cool
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Originally Posted by Bluehinder
...But, it's a street car, not a race car. Buy a cup car...
Originally Posted by MJSpeed
Why is it that if someone wants a barebones lightweight sportscar sans sunroof then go buy a cup car...why can't we have the same choices the ROW has?..
Finally, to everyone who's idiotic argument is "buy a cupcar":
"It's a sports car, not a town car. Buy a Cadillac".
09-04-2006, 12:44 PM
#29
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Sorry, but the "The pussification" of the US car buyer, isn't enough of an explanation (nice phrase though it is). Take two cars weighing roughly the same: Z06 and 997 GT3 (1,453 and 1,461 kgs). Both have aircon, stereo, power steering, airbags etc all the luxuries and safety features. Both are "pussified". The GT3 however, has bucket seats (lighter), PCCBs (much lighter) and has a much smaller - lighter - engine. It's more expensive. And yet, the Z06 still manages to weigh less.
There's something more serious going on here. Porsche just doesn't seem to be able to design and build them right any more.
There's something more serious going on here. Porsche just doesn't seem to be able to design and build them right any more.
09-04-2006, 12:45 PM
#30
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The part I disagree with is that Porsche makes plenty of porky, luxury GT cars--some with even higher HP--to satisfy the masses. This is about delivering a street-legal, NON-luxury sports car for USA sports car enthusiasts. Why is luxury inexplicably tied to the sports car equation by Porsche in its street cars?