pcar964

there's a simple way to solve this little dilemma - remember when IROC had road courses in the series? There you had nascar drivers against road racers/f1, and guess who always won (in equally prepared cars, by a ridiculous margin in most cases)... the road racers/f1. I'm not going to list each of the races and results, they're online for anyone with enough time to research it.

give me one example of a real sportscar race where a nascar guy was faster than a road course guy. Good luck finding that one...

Rolo

So taking a guy out of his comfort zone and putting him in a meaningless race against guys that are in their comfort zone means what?

There is no absolute answer to this argument, but to simply state NASCAR drivers have no driving skills is silly on its face.

Jeff Gordan a couple years ago in Montoya's car ran laps fast enough to put him 4 or 5 on the F1 grid...and he was just doing a media thing, and had never been in the car before.

pcar964

First of all, I didn't say they have no skill. It simply takes LESS skill than other forms of racing.

As far as Gordon driving Montoya's car, haha you are making things up - Gordon had a hard time keeping the F1 car pointed in the right direction... to his credit, he posted consistent laps for the last few, and only went off track a few times. Not bad for first time in an F1 car, but let's remember this new breed of F1 cars have launch control, traction control, ad nauseum - not like driving an older F1 car, or a Can-Am 917, etc.

Gordon during interview about the event:
"The ultimate is to get to F1," he says. "It sure would be nice to see an American driver in that F1 series, and at one time I would have seriously considered it..." "...I know what it would take to get to that next level to be competitive [in Formula 1], and there's no way. I have so many challenges ahead of me in Winston Cup that I'll have my hands full there for a long time, but I'll take this experience with me forever."

Gordon was a humble guy about the whole thing, I have no problem with him personally, or any of those guys... just don't sit there and tell me driving on an oval takes the same talent as a road course.

Jim Child

OK you asked for it. Check out: http://www.irocracing.com/ You'll find that IROC has run a total of 24 road races in its history, and 8 or 33% of the total have been won by NASCAR regulars such as Bobby Allison, Cale Yarborough, Darrel Waltrip, Geoff Bodine and Rusty Wallace. Before you complain about the quality of the drivers they defeated, you had better go check out the data. It includes numerous F1 World Champions. Google is your friend. Perhaps you should utilize it before you make ridiculously inaccurate claims.

Regarding your second challenge, have you forgotten that Tony Stewart's team narrowly missed winning the Daytona 24 each of the past two years. Have you forgotten Stewart leading the '04 race with a broken suspension only to have it finally give up 25 minutes from the end?

Oh and BTW, I'm not even a NASCAR fan, although I do love watching them run the road courses. I'm just a road racing fan with an appreciation for the facts, unlike you.

Kaz

Didn't Jeff Gordon jump into a rallycar a few years ago and beat their top drivers? Some kind of world challenge deal?

Besides that Pcar driving an oval at the speeds stock cars go surrounded by 40 other cars is a "talent" as well as a different skill set. My bet is you've never driven an oval at any speed. At a POC event a few months ago held at Fontana raceway Mark A. stated he had a new found respect for Nascar guys as he was entering the oval at 170mph with no one really near him and it was scary.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but yours not only smacks of snobbery and ignorance but it is quite unnecessary. I'd bet a few bucks if you had a chance to make a living as a pro driver in Nascar you'd jump at it.

Lastly, this "new breed" of supposedly easier F1 cars still had a former F1 driver (Niki Lauda) spinning all over the place when he pronounced todays F1 drivers as less skilled than in the past and was challenged to prove it. Just stop dude, you have no clue what you're talking about.

pcar964

OK, so let's keep track here of who has no clue what they're talking about... so far we have me, Michael Schumacher, and Nikki Lauda... Anyone else? Perhaps you'd like to question the veracity of the opinions expressed by Icyx, or Donohue, or hell why not Senna, or Fangio?

No IROC road course race was EVER won by a Nascar driver, do you need thicker glasses or something? And what the heck are you talking about with Gordon in a rally car being faster than the rally drivers? You are absolutely making things up! haha

Kaz

Here's the link clown http://www.gordonline.com/archive/120202.html

Rolo

Well, that Jimmy Johnson guy really sucks!

Kaz

Yeah, can't believe they let that guy in at the track even.

Another point I'd like to bring up is invariably when anyone compares race drivers from different series they use the absolute top driver of F1. It is unlikely Sato, to use an example would fare very well in Nascar or even Champ and Indy cars. Tony Stewart, Gordon and probably even Dale Jr. could equal if not better his results in F1 first year in all things being equal.

I think when you take the top 5 drivers of any given series the transition from one to another becomes far easier (if all things were equal)and the bottom feeders in any given series are just lucky to be there. They earn a living, they are pro drivers and certainly nothing a recreational driver should sneeze at.

e6tme

Wow, who's in denial? So what if no Nascar driver won an iroc road course race? No "road racer" has ever won a Cup race held on a road course. WTF is your point? And no, I don't count Robby Gordon because he is a Cup regular.

By the way, in the 02 Race of Champions, Jeff Gordon set the fastest overall time in the finals (not the nations cup).

pcar964

Isn't that on an OVAL or figure-8 track? How is that equivalent to road racing? Not exactly surprising that a nascar driver is excellent at negotiating such a track... I would bet that Jeff Gordon would probably be faster than Michael Schumacher at Daytona in a nascar also, does that mean he's more skillful than MS?

ok, this is getting boring, I think we all have our opinions which are probably not going to change no matter what someone says. enjoy your nascar, and I'll enjoy watching my early-90s F1 tapes.

Rolo

Guy, you're right, we all have our opinions. But you're now changing the argument. You stated road course guys had more skills and were better drivers...or something to that affect....Now you're saying F1 is better than NASCAR...Well maybe you have a point there. I'm not a NASCAR fan, but it is a more competitive race than F1 .

Personaly I like the sportscar series. ALMS. WSC, and alike.

e6tme

Are you a lawyer or something?

No, it is not an oval. The Grand Canary ROC course had gravel, tarmac, left turns, right turns, some straights, and a jump or two. It was not until 04 that the format changed to the dumbed down version in the Stade De France.

Nice try anyway, thanks for playing.

Jim Child

What's wrong with you? Don't you know how to work a web browser? I posted the link for you: http://www.irocracing.com/

OK. Lets assume you weren't smart enough to go to this site and click on History and look at the various years. Here's a more specific link for you:

http://www.irocracing.com/History/1975/1975-history.htm

Note that Bobby Allison won at Riverside on 10/27/74. Do you not know that Bobby Allison was a NASCAR driver? Do you not know that Riverside was a famous road course in California? You don't know too much do you?

Here's another link:

http://www.irocracing.com/History/1991/1991-history.htm

Note that Rusty Wallace won at Watkins Glen on 8/10/91. This was the last time that IROC ran a road course.

Here's what Rusty had to say about it, "One of my favorite memories of racing at Watkins Glen came back in 1991 when we won the IROC race there," Wallace said of the Aug. 10, 1991 race. It wrapped up the IROC championship for us that year and we really did it right."

You can find the quote here:

http://www.rustywallace.com/schedule..._14_news1.html

If you check out the other years at http://www.irocracing.com/, and have a basic ability to identify the names of road courses, and NASCAR drivers (which you don't seem to have) you'll clearly see that NASCAR drivers have won on road courses no fewer than 8 times.

Give it up dude. The facts are against you.

Jim Child

At this link you'll see Jacky Ickx finishing last in an IROC road course race at Burke Lakefront against a field including 5 NASCAR drivers which was won by Cale Yarborough (a NASCAR driver in case you didn't know).

http://www.irocracing.com/History/1984/1984-history.htm

Here's another link where he lost to Yarborough, Waltrip and Petty at Riverside:

http://www.irocracing.com/History/1978/1978-history.htm

Go ahead. Keep denying it.