GT3 vs. M3 comparisons???
04-12-2005, 01:38 PM
#46
Originally Posted by ///Mous3
With respect I will say that, you are not getting twice the car by paying double. E46 M3 is out-the-door, a little under US$60,000 where as a GT3 is almost double (or even more to those with deeper pockets)
Saying that the E46 M3 feels like a SUV after driving a 996 GT3 does sounds like a sales pitch AND in my opinion, more of a self-assurance.
Saying that the E46 M3 feels like a SUV after driving a 996 GT3 does sounds like a sales pitch AND in my opinion, more of a self-assurance.
The GT3 is more raw, mine even more so since I've got the GT3 seat and muffler bypass pipes. Also, my M3 is a convertible and clearly not as performance oriented as the coupe. You sit higher in the M3, it's softer sprung, the acceleration is more mild, turn-in less sharp, much quieter & more civilized (no bypass pipes), etc, etc. Like I said, it "almost feels like a SUV after driving the GT3". I think I would know since I've driven them back to back dozens of times. Have you?
The E46 M3 is a great car (coupe or convertible), especially for the money. But it's not a GT3. Get over it.
04-12-2005, 07:04 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by henrikbuus
I have a blast driving my Dinan M5 around town!. It has all the right bolt-ons for a fun (raw) feel. It makes you 'want' to heel-n-toe or rev every single down shift. It has unbelievable acceleration at almost any speed. It is tight and turn- in feels immediate (except when you're just coming out of driving 3 hours in the GT3). And it sounds mean -even at idle!
I needed 4 doors, otherwise I would have done it to an M3 as I like that body a whole lot better. But the M5 has much more brute force than the M3 when really stepping on it!
Following Dinan parts on my M5:
Stage 3 suspension kit, high flow exhaust, cold air intake, limited slip re-geared diff. (lower gearing, which acts like a close ratio gearbox and makes the throttle response much more immediate.) ECU, strut brace front & rear!
And then of course Michelin PS2's. Run the car in the "sport" mode (even more throttle response and more turning with less steering input) and deactivate the antiskid control and I promise it's a good time driving around town.
And then if you have to go to Mammoth for a 2 day ski trip, it will run up there in the same time it takes a Suburban to go to Big Bear!! (bring your Valentine1 though). And it feels (almost) as comfortable as my old E55AMG going straight down the hwy.
I don't think a stock M3 has what it takes, but buy a used 6-speed and spend a few bucks on the right parts, and its a whole different experience!
I needed 4 doors, otherwise I would have done it to an M3 as I like that body a whole lot better. But the M5 has much more brute force than the M3 when really stepping on it!
Following Dinan parts on my M5:
Stage 3 suspension kit, high flow exhaust, cold air intake, limited slip re-geared diff. (lower gearing, which acts like a close ratio gearbox and makes the throttle response much more immediate.) ECU, strut brace front & rear!
And then of course Michelin PS2's. Run the car in the "sport" mode (even more throttle response and more turning with less steering input) and deactivate the antiskid control and I promise it's a good time driving around town.
And then if you have to go to Mammoth for a 2 day ski trip, it will run up there in the same time it takes a Suburban to go to Big Bear!! (bring your Valentine1 though). And it feels (almost) as comfortable as my old E55AMG going straight down the hwy.
I don't think a stock M3 has what it takes, but buy a used 6-speed and spend a few bucks on the right parts, and its a whole different experience!
04-13-2005, 01:58 PM
#49
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Mark,
I suggest you drive an Audi S4 Avant (wagon). I have one as my daily driver and it suits that role perfectly. The V8 has a nice exhaust note, is very flexible and offers much better response, squirt, and gratification at around town rpms than the M3, which i cross shopped. I don't think the M3 does anything better (except mpg) than the S4 Avant for day to day activities. The S4 is still a hoot to drive and goes largely unnoticed as anything special to the general public.
Plus, the awd S4 is a true 4 seasons car.
I suggest you drive an Audi S4 Avant (wagon). I have one as my daily driver and it suits that role perfectly. The V8 has a nice exhaust note, is very flexible and offers much better response, squirt, and gratification at around town rpms than the M3, which i cross shopped. I don't think the M3 does anything better (except mpg) than the S4 Avant for day to day activities. The S4 is still a hoot to drive and goes largely unnoticed as anything special to the general public.
Plus, the awd S4 is a true 4 seasons car.
04-13-2005, 03:04 PM
#50
Since my eyes/ears are burning, I can chime in on my brakes.
First off the smoking issue was from the "real bedding" of the Pagid oranges. While I did do half of the bedding as instructed by Pagid- 90-60 stops consecutively, I didn't follow the next stage; which is to drive the car in a race situation likely done when the smoking ensued, I have had this occur with hawk pads also.
Also I hadn't been through that section which was considerably tight, with a few surprising increasing radius turn (low speed = low air flow). After the smoking the bite was even better and when you really get heat in the pads they just keep getting better and better. I cannot say this with the pagid S pads they definitely plateaud much earlier. I will say that the orange do like a bit of heat when cold, you can greatly notice it, but 5 minutes of normal driving usually accomplishes that.
The squeeling is entirely due to the pad compound. I am afterall running pagid orange race coumpound on the street
In defense of Stoptech, they do not ordinary sell the pagid's nor recommend for most situations of use. They have a considerable inventory of pads, and their knowledge and suggestion for application is outstanding. I actually bought the pads elsewhere, I relied on their expertise and, they are available at competitive pricing from Stoptech. ( I had a credit somewhere else I needed to use).
I also did the stainless lines in the rear. Their lines are DOT and TUV approved and are a bargain!Further I am running Castrol SRF, which I bought because of the credit but Stoptech sells motul which is known as the next best fluid in boiling points.
Lastly I installed CUP ducts which are very different than the gt3 ducts and grossly different than the puny 996 stock ducts.
Overall I can say that the upgrade was the best thing I have done to the car. The bite is insane at any speed, after warm up due to pad compound, again after 5 min not an issue. The kit was a snap to install with ordinary tools and the instructions were very clear. The staff at Stoptech was greatly helpful answering any questions with suprior knowledge.
Although I did "smoke the brakes" due to bedding, I have experienced ZERO fade whatesoever. The design of the rotors is superior with the accelerated flow of the vanes through the rotors, and I have had no issues with noise of the floating rotors period. The brakes do barely fit the 02 5 spokes but no hint of rubbing or interference is demonstrable. YOU even get to have wear sensors in the front!!!
When I was doing my brakes I considered all the kits and due to the better technology IMHO stoptech was the winner. The rotor vane design, floating hardware, Bridge with directive airflow which greatly stiffens the caliper, Dot/Tuv lines, all in all, in a totality of circumstances just made it a no brainer to me. If there was any futher thought, the Price sealed the deal. The only possible argument left is whether they're proven, Stoptech supports many race teams with their brakes and continually seek inmprovement.
On another note, I toured the plant when I made my order. The Efficiency of the production methods where impressive. Their commitment to quality control was even moreso. Lastly, I was extremely impressed with their shipping method of how the product is packaged thorugh a patented method at considerable expense, very cool!
For all those thinking that I need to zip up and consider any deficiencies or limitations, I have found none. I would highly recommend the kits.
BTW I know that the turbo kit is the same as on my car. I am running the 14" slotted.
Stoptech also makes a 15" kit but I believe you need 19" rims to clear them
First off the smoking issue was from the "real bedding" of the Pagid oranges. While I did do half of the bedding as instructed by Pagid- 90-60 stops consecutively, I didn't follow the next stage; which is to drive the car in a race situation likely done when the smoking ensued, I have had this occur with hawk pads also.
Also I hadn't been through that section which was considerably tight, with a few surprising increasing radius turn (low speed = low air flow). After the smoking the bite was even better and when you really get heat in the pads they just keep getting better and better. I cannot say this with the pagid S pads they definitely plateaud much earlier. I will say that the orange do like a bit of heat when cold, you can greatly notice it, but 5 minutes of normal driving usually accomplishes that.
The squeeling is entirely due to the pad compound. I am afterall running pagid orange race coumpound on the street
In defense of Stoptech, they do not ordinary sell the pagid's nor recommend for most situations of use. They have a considerable inventory of pads, and their knowledge and suggestion for application is outstanding. I actually bought the pads elsewhere, I relied on their expertise and, they are available at competitive pricing from Stoptech. ( I had a credit somewhere else I needed to use).
I also did the stainless lines in the rear. Their lines are DOT and TUV approved and are a bargain!Further I am running Castrol SRF, which I bought because of the credit but Stoptech sells motul which is known as the next best fluid in boiling points.
Lastly I installed CUP ducts which are very different than the gt3 ducts and grossly different than the puny 996 stock ducts.
Overall I can say that the upgrade was the best thing I have done to the car. The bite is insane at any speed, after warm up due to pad compound, again after 5 min not an issue. The kit was a snap to install with ordinary tools and the instructions were very clear. The staff at Stoptech was greatly helpful answering any questions with suprior knowledge.
Although I did "smoke the brakes" due to bedding, I have experienced ZERO fade whatesoever. The design of the rotors is superior with the accelerated flow of the vanes through the rotors, and I have had no issues with noise of the floating rotors period. The brakes do barely fit the 02 5 spokes but no hint of rubbing or interference is demonstrable. YOU even get to have wear sensors in the front!!!
When I was doing my brakes I considered all the kits and due to the better technology IMHO stoptech was the winner. The rotor vane design, floating hardware, Bridge with directive airflow which greatly stiffens the caliper, Dot/Tuv lines, all in all, in a totality of circumstances just made it a no brainer to me. If there was any futher thought, the Price sealed the deal. The only possible argument left is whether they're proven, Stoptech supports many race teams with their brakes and continually seek inmprovement.
On another note, I toured the plant when I made my order. The Efficiency of the production methods where impressive. Their commitment to quality control was even moreso. Lastly, I was extremely impressed with their shipping method of how the product is packaged thorugh a patented method at considerable expense, very cool!
For all those thinking that I need to zip up and consider any deficiencies or limitations, I have found none. I would highly recommend the kits.
BTW I know that the turbo kit is the same as on my car. I am running the 14" slotted.
Stoptech also makes a 15" kit but I believe you need 19" rims to clear them
04-13-2005, 04:43 PM
#51
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While I wouldn't blame you if you rejected this idea for any number of reasons, but I find the Mitsubishi EVO one of the best "practical" roadcars in terms of steering feel and driving connection. They really steer beautifully, have some get-up-and-go and are great in any weather. Not a bad way to spend $30k for a sedan...
04-13-2005, 04:45 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by GrantG
While I wouldn't blame you if you rejected this idea for any number of reasons, but I find the Mitsubishi EVO one of the best "practical" roadcars in terms of steering feel and driving connection. They really steer beautifully, have some get-up-and-go and are great in any weather. Not a bad way to spend $30k for a sedan...
and fun to drive. The only bothersome factor is that
you get a lot of attention from street racer crowd
as well as the local police force.
04-13-2005, 07:48 PM
#53
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Grant and Bora,
I had an Evo too. If I was looking for a sports car on that range, I would get the MR, no doubt. Awesome car, incredible steering response and feel, great on the track too...
I had an Evo too. If I was looking for a sports car on that range, I would get the MR, no doubt. Awesome car, incredible steering response and feel, great on the track too...
04-13-2005, 07:56 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by smdb01us
Grant and Bora,
I had an Evo too. If I was looking for a sports car on that range, I would get the MR, no doubt. Awesome car, incredible steering response and feel, great on the track too...
I had an Evo too. If I was looking for a sports car on that range, I would get the MR, no doubt. Awesome car, incredible steering response and feel, great on the track too...
04-13-2005, 09:52 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by frayed
The fact that an E46 M3 and a GT3 provide a performance envelope beyond the grasp of many drivers is likely true.
Originally Posted by frayed
As a long time BMW owner and former BMW loyalist, I was hoping the E46 M3 was the proper spiritual successor to the E36.
I do not have a single doubt that the 996 GT3 is one of the finest instruments. However, comparing to the E46 M3 is ludicrous.
Originally Posted by ben in lj
oh "the price" argument which is always introduced when all else has failed.
Have you ever heard the saying; “Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?”
Again, I repeat;
I do not have a single doubt that the 996 GT3 is one of the finest instruments. However, comparing to the E46 M3 is ludicrous.
Originally Posted by ben in lj
Don't know what happened at Top Gear, but I’ve seen considerable comparison between the base GT3 and Stradale along with a bunch of people who own both and have had both at the track, and the regular GT3 hangs (if not more) right with the Stradale.
Consider this; even the GT3 RS did not keep up with the Stradale on the episode that I saw. Of course you would blame it on the V8. Which car have a full rollcage?
GT3 RS vs. 360 Stradale! Now, would you call it a better comparison?
Let me repeat again;
I do not have a single doubt that the 996 GT3 is one of the finest instruments. However, comparing to the E46 M3 is ludicrous.
Originally Posted by mooty
GT3 is more than 2x the car e46m3 is. The stock suspension, steering feel and pedal feel alone is worth the difference in price.
A side-note: Not to open another can of worms; I remember that E46 M3 GTR's kicked the living daylight out of the Porsche's that it was the Porsche who complained. Allegedly, BMW lost interest in the GT Series because of their F1 program even after BMW made a number of the road-going GTR's.
Originally Posted by mooty
frayed, you are right that BMW is moving to mass mkt and getting soft as we can see from e30 to e36 to e46 and the original m5 to the e39m5.
Originally Posted by Holger B
FYI, I own and am happy with both cars. Have you ever driven (or even riden in) a GT3?
I do not have a single doubt that the 996 GT3 is one of the finest instruments. However, comparing to the E46 M3 is ludicrous.
Originally Posted by Holger B
The GT3 is more raw, mine even more so since I've got the GT3 seat and muffler bypass pipes.
Rightttttttttt……. It is the seats and the muffler bypass pipes that make a car “more raw”.
Originally Posted by Holger B
[-- cut the BS --]
Like I said, it "almost feels like a SUV after driving the GT3". I think I would know since I've driven them back to back dozens of times. Have you?
The E46 M3 is a great car (coupe or convertible), especially for the money. But it's not a GT3. Get over it.
Like I said, it "almost feels like a SUV after driving the GT3". I think I would know since I've driven them back to back dozens of times. Have you?
The E46 M3 is a great car (coupe or convertible), especially for the money. But it's not a GT3. Get over it.
I do not have a single doubt that the 996 GT3 is one of the finest instruments. However, comparing to the E46 M3 is ludicrous.
One last thing Holger;
Since you are in Frisco with a convertible M3, how do we know that you are not getting your muffler bypassed?
04-13-2005, 11:50 PM
#58
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What's the point of all this discussion? Drive both and see what fits you the best. There's alot of cars out there that can beat both cars. I just like the GT3 better.Regards. Mike
04-13-2005, 11:52 PM
#59
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Originally Posted by ///Mous3
Likely? You wouldn't bet your GT3 on it; would you?
Please tell me that it was a mistake! Or that you are the blind-driver with E46 M3? Let's start with the body panels and end with high revving motor. Why can't you see that E46 M3 tries to be "the proper spiritual successor" to the E30 M3.
Please tell me that it was a mistake! Or that you are the blind-driver with E46 M3? Let's start with the body panels and end with high revving motor. Why can't you see that E46 M3 tries to be "the proper spiritual successor" to the E30 M3.
How many hours did you spend cutting and pasting? Have you driven an E30 M3, E36 M3 and E46 M3 on track, at speed, near/at the limit? If so, you wouldn't be asking the question. Hint: the E46 weighs. . . oh nevermind.
I'm done.