mooty

rockit man. 90 car at the track doens't mean they are ON the track at the same time. with TQ (tracquest) i think at mot 30 cars, if that many, are on track the same time and really you don't get too close to other cars most of the time. kim and i have been to many many different organizations some have people with bigger ***** than brains and that may be problematic. but at TQ, 99% of the drivers are quite mature (both in attitude and age), they drive hard, but not over their heads. get a ride from todd serotta and you will be quite amazed at what "driving" really means. b/c for most of us, we are barely haning on to the steering wheel, NOT driving. and after some 40 DE ( and never drive less than 250 miles on track each day i am out there, for reference, most people log about 125-150 mile per day. i drive two sessions) i am still trying to learn how to drive.... you go and you will get addicted.

Bob Rouleau

Todd and Steve in Fl

At our events the only passengers instructors can take out in the instructor run group are other instructors. Instructors do take students out in other run groups and we all agree this is a good way to show a student how to perform certain techniques. The reason we keep student passengers out of the fastest run group is a concern that said student may be tempted to emulate certain techniques without having the pre-requisite skills. When I take out a student I adjust my driving to the level needed to demonstrate the lesson. Advanced students get a faster ride than novices.

Best,

Todd Serota [TracQuest]

Hi Macfly:

I wanted to comment on what you've said about the various tracks. You certainly have a valid point about some tracks being less risky than others because they have more runoff room. Completing the list of tracks in California, Buttonwillow and Thunderhill also have tons of runoff just about everywhere and both are great tracks, with a little bit of everything

However, it's a shame you won't go back to Infineon. It's absolutely one of the best, most challenging tracks in the country. No doubt there are things to hit there, but you'd be surprised how many people spin or go off and don't hit anything. Not that I consider going off a viable option at Infineon, or Laguna for that matter (although many people have also gone off at Laguna and not hit anything), but people simply need to adjust their driving at tracks like Infineon. As I tell everyone at my driver's meeting, enjoy Infineon, but it's not the place to decide you're going to make that final jump and find the limit of your car or work on your newly developing car control skills. Thunderhill and Buttonwillow are more appropriate for that, and even there, one needs to pick particular corners. But Infineon and Laguna provide immense enjoyment if approached properly. As I said in a different post, the driver determines how safe s/he is by how hard s/he pushes on the loud pedal. If people drive sensibly, car damage rates at well run events aren't that much higher at Infineon and Laguna than they are at the other CA tracks.

I would also add that we here in CA are very spoiled, aside from the weather and having the Terminator as our governor. Back East, most of the good tracks are like Infineon and Laguna. Road Atlanta, Mid-Ohio, Watkins Glen, VIR - all have plenty of things to hit. Still, clubs run DE events there and people who respect the tracks accordingly go home with their cars looking like they did when they started, with only tires, brake pads and rotors a bit worse for wear.

Finally, I agree completely that if you're a bit hesitant (or just want some great rides!), go to a DE event and take some rides with instructors to see what it's all about. I encourage non-participant passengers at all of my events, letting them ride for free. You don't even have to know anyone; I'll get you into an instructor's car - my own GT2 if it's on the West Coast. The only places where this doesn't work so easily are Willow Springs and Mid-Ohio, which don't allow non-participant passengers, but I can work around it if someone wants a ride at those tracks. One big caveat, though. After a few laps as a passenger, it may not be so easy to not sign up and drive!

Wreck Me Otter

But don't take a ride in a Radical SR3...or you may have to buy one the next day...LOL...

Todd Serota [TracQuest]

and Steve in FL also wrote, on the same subject:

Todd: Part of my concern with having a student as a passenger is that I don't want them to be demonstrating how observant they were of my corner entry speeds when I'm back to being their passenger. That's why, and I think we both agree, laps with students are best done at 9/10ths. If I always had a passenger and was doing a whole day of track time at 9/10ths I'd be bored and less motivated to attend a DE as an instructor. Of course I think I've now promised enough rides in the GT3 (when it finally arrives) that I'm going to be stuck at 9/10ths for the rest of the year.

Hi Bob and Steve:

I've heard this rationale before, but I have to say that in my experience, it winds up having the opposite, beneficial effect. An intermediate student is starting to push harder. He thinks he's close to the limit because he's starting to slide a bit, not always in control. Then he goes for a ride with an instructor and sees that he's so far from being able to drive that way that he gives up pushing so hard and concentrates on all of the things he should be doing. Naturally, the instructor needs to communicate a lot during the ride,and I always make a point of telling the student that s/he shouldn't drive this way when s/he gets back in his/her own car. I've been having instructors take students for hot laps for many years and it hasn't been any problem at all. To the contrary, it has proved to be a very valuable educational tool.

As for your concern, Steve, about being bored all the time at 9/10ths, this goes to the age old Internet forum discussion about exactly what 9/10ths (or any number of 10ths) means. The bottom line, though, is that by backing off just a little bit on corner entry speed, you can increase safety dramatically and still have a great time. I guess one could say that I back it down to 9.5/10ths with a passenger, but it's enough so I'm still having a blast driving, with an acceptable reduction of risk.

macfly

This talk reminds me of one of the oft overlooked facts about driving fast. Your fastest laps are never ever the ones you think are your fastest, the ones you think are you fastest are the ones where you are all pushing at the edges, and loosing 10ths here and there. The laps that seem slow, and even easy are always the ones where you are breaking your own records. 9/10ths could well surprise you!

Bob Rouleau

Macfly - 100 percent agreement. When you are really flying, you feel that neither you nor the car is working very hard. When youae working uo a sweat and the car is working hard the chrono shows that you're going slower.

Best,

Steve in FL

Bob: I think you're saying exactly what I am regarding students riding in the instructor group, it can lead to a "Do as I say, not as I do" situation.

Todd: Regarding the phrase "9/10ths" being open to interpretation, here's an example: Turn 14 (Bishop Bend) at Sebring is a very fast left hand bend that I'd be taking at about 110 in my Boxster S. At that speed I am afraid of that turn as the line they've now forced with curbs doesn't feel "natural" to me. With a student I take that turn at 90 something as I don't want them thinking they should go any faster with me in the passenger seat.

Bob/Todd: What's your position on timing student's laps? The Suncoast PCA policy is timing isn't allowed for students but I could see some benefit to it for proving to a student that smooth is fast. I had a student last month with a 928 GTS who's idea of fast was anything but smooth but I couldn't convince them of that in the one session I had (the 928 has to be the most cramped cockpit of any Porsche ever built and I had to get them a shorter instructor). Perhaps taking them for a ride in my car and timing laps that were at the edge of control vs. smooth would be a good instructional aid.

macfly

Bob/Todd: What's your position on timing student's laps?
Even though you didn't ask me the question, one thing I do know is if it is a DE, with no timing, then your insurance remians valid, but if it is a timed event then you're on your own. I'd rather not know at that potential price point!

Steve in FL

Macfly: Right, I'm sure the insurance aspect is one of the big reasons that student timing isn't allowed. If that would apply to an instructor demonstration is an issue that would need to be clarified.

Sun Ra

Thank you Colm. Very few people read closely.

for large groups, i am SURE that todd's events are as safe as any others. please note i did not say "wild West" some one else did. todd, i'm sorry.

CodeRed

I think that the amber side markers would look better on a yellow GT2 anyway.

STLPCA

I don't regularly visit this Forum, but the shouting was so loud that I heard it all the way over in my low priced seats. I took the time to read the entire thread and while I can't comment on the Tracquest debate, since none of my DEs have been with Todd's group, I do have a question about Watt's credibility & integrity. In Watt's signature he attempts to pass himself off as Director of Bombast, HWFMR ("Hey Wait For Me Racing Team"). Contrary to his representation, Watt does not now and has never had any affiliation with HWFMR. In that regard, he is a poseur. It may be a little transgression, much like deceitfully removing minor fixtures from a car you've sold after the deal is struck, but it does reflect poorly on one's character, credibility and integrity.

Watt: Please immediately discontinue the use of HWFMR in your signature.

Sun Ra

the side markers were never included in the deal, nor were the sports seats, but i gave those to todd upon demand since he thought they were. todd kept demanding more when i thought our deal was closed. his payment date kept delaying and delaying altho' promised as a hard date, but his demands increased. he demanded certain things from me that to me required payment up front and thus i refused. he demanded extra equipment be moved at my expense, it's quite a long list of my complaints about this deal. we have had some misunderstandings. but i buy and sell 4 cars on average every year and have never had a problem, prior to this.

if you guys really need to hear my side of the story, let me know.

and is it right to convict me when all you have heard is one side of a clearly unpleasant relationship?

and dan:

"In Watt's signature he attempts to pass himself off as Director of Bombast, HWFMR ("Hey Wait For Me Racing Team"). Contrary to his representation, Watt does not now and has never had any affiliation with HWFMR."

how ludicrous can you be? i was playing the joke and i dont believe you have those letters copyrighted, and if so i have never heard from your intellectual property attorneys. for you to call that lacking in integrity, i think it can only be called piling on.

Todd Serota [TracQuest]

Unbelievable. Not right to convict you? If you were under oath you'd be convicted of perjury.

Since Watt has put this out there, here's what the deal was. The price of the car was $134k, his full asking price. He said that there were additional items he had added to the car and that if I wanted them, they were extra. The key word is "additional." The items were GT3 seats, a factory roll bar, a fire extinguisher, 6-point harnesses and an extra set of factory wheels shod with P-Zero Corsas. I said I was interested in everything. After a short, friendly negotiation, we agreed on $4k for the extras, making the total price of the car $138k, which is how much Watt received from my leasing company.

So I'd love to hear how the sport seats could possibly not have been included when I purchased the car from you and bought some additional things as well. If we hadn't agreed on a price for the extras and I had let you keep them, I suppose you would have delivered a car to me with no seats in it? Uh huh. Moreover, since brand new GT3 seats can be had for roughly what used sport seats in as-new condition are worth, why would anyone pay you extra for the GT3 seats if the original seats weren't included?

Given what Watt has said about the sport seats, I guess his attitude concerning the clear side light markers shouldn't be surprising. They were on the car in pics he used to advertise it and they were on the car the only time I saw it prior to purchase. They were never discussed. How could you contend that anyone would think he was going to get a car with orange markers under those circumstances? In fact, in this case, it's even clearer because you had extra things that you specifically said needed to be purchased separately, which I did. Never were the clear side light markers mentioned as part of the extras.

What's just as telling are your responses to my inquiries about the markers and the seats. With the markers, you denied that they were on the car until I proved it to you by referring you to a pic you had posted on the Internet. At that point you said that they simply weren't included and that I could afford $35 to buy another set. When I told you that it was the principle that bugged me and that I wanted either the markers or the $35 to buy new ones, you laughed and said something to the effect of "tough sh*t" or "tough t*tty" - I can't remember exactly which. At that point I just left it alone.

When I called you to arrange to pick up the sport seats, you first said that you were keeping them because they weren't included. When I started to go ballistic, you laughed and said to stop worrying because you were just yanking my chain (gee, like you would ever do that to anyone?). We then arranged for me to pick them up, which I did. Never was there any serious contention by you that the seats weren't included, until your post in this thread.

We had had some discussions about wine in the course of our deal and notwithstanding what you did with the side markers, completely on my own I brought you a bottle of Araujo Sauvignon Blanc, which is the best Sauvignon Blanc in CA and extremely rare, available only if you're on the winery's mailing list. You later told me how much you liked it. I thought things were fine until you started in on me on the Rennlist 911 list serve and continued here and even on another web site.

As far as my making continuing demands on you before we closed the deal, that statement is just as outrageous as what you've said about the other issues. When we agreed that I would buy your car, you knew that I was going to lease it and that the deal was going to be run through a Porsche dealership so that I could pay the money to have the dealer certify it under Porsche's special resale program, thereby extending the factory warranty to 6 years/100,000 miles. All of the "delays" were caused by me frantically trying to work that part of the deal out, and later by the Porsche dealer taking longer than expected to get a check to you. In that process I never made any "demands" on you; I wasn't in any position to do so. I did ask you, excessively politely in fact, if you would do certain things to facilitate this. When you said no, I moved on. Ultimately the deal got done and you got every penny upon which we had agreed. Apparently you've been harboring resentment ever since because I didn't drive up to your house with a certified check for $138k, but I had no idea until now. I apologize for not being in your financial situation and having to lease the car. I apologize for busting my butt to make a deal work in which I obtained a car that in my wildest dreams I never thought I would have, and sometimes still don't believe I have when I open my garage door.

To everyone else on the board: I'm sorry that I've prolonged this part of the thread. As I had posted above, I happily thought it was over. But I can't sit back and let garbage like this go unchallenged. If Watt's untruthful version was believed, it would affect my integrity. And no, Watt, I'm not assassinating your character in this post, just as I didn't in the other ones. I'm just posting the facts. You've done a great job of it yourself, though.