MetalSolid

Dude, I knew you meant this year, it was a joke, hence the big smiley face. Jeez, what's happening to this forum?

Todd Serota [TracQuest]

Hi Rockitman:

Since you haven't been to a DE event and haven't been able to see how they work, I can understand how you could have the concerns you do. Here's why they should be minimal at TracQuest events, which can be verified by all of the other people who have already posted about my events.

First off, what you're calling "the ricer" crowd doesn't come to my events. In fact, I have a reputation for having the highest-end cars attend my events, along with one or two other groups. Quite honestly, my events are too high end and expensive, in large part because of the gourmet food that I supply. I didn't design them that way for that reason - it's just the type of product I want to offer - but that's the result. Also, as Kim accurately points out, the kind of people about whom you're concerned don't go to track events anyway - their cars are mostly for show, and even if they want to drive fast, they think they're cool because they do it on the street. And let's not single out "ricers" as the undesirable element. It could be the owner of any car who doesn't care what happens to his property or the property of others.

For the most part, cars that attend my events are Porsches (primarily, since I've been a Porsche guy for 21 years), BMW's, Ferraris, Vipers, Corvettes, NSX's, etc. There will be the occasional Honda CRX or the like, but the ones who are actually willing to spend the time and money to come to one of my events don't have the mentality about which you're concerned. Viper and Corvette owners sometimes have the reputation for being overly aggressive drivers who just want to drag race, just like Porsche owners sometimes have the reputation for being snobby. In the vast majority of cases, it's not true at all. They're enthusiasts just like we are who love love their cars and don't want to see them damaged.

Camaraderie at events is very important to me, and I have to say, the owners of all of these various marques really enjoy mixing with each other. One of the reasons I cater gourmet food at the track and put on lavish banquets is to keep people together and enhance the camaraderie. It works very well.

As far as the structure of the events goes you can get a full picture by going to the TracQuest web site and clicking on, "Driver Education - What's It All About" on the left. That will take you to a full description of everything that happens, including how events are run, how to get through a corner on a race track, various driving techniques, the flags we use for communication, etc. However, briefly, my events are organized into 3 run groups (4 at Laguna due to track rules): Slow, Medium and Instructor/Fast. Every driver in the Slow group must have an instructor with him/her in the car at all times unless s/he has been "signed off" to go out alone. Even then, I encourage novices to do it once and take instructors with them the rest of the time because they won't learn anything more unless an instructor is in the car. Instructors assist not only with basic driving skills but also with helping to watch for traffic and flags, assisting students with letting faster traffic pass safely and slowing students down if necessary, for their own safety and the safety of the other drivers. Passing is done under controlled conditions - fairly strict in the Slow group (only on the straights, only with a signal from the car in front), less strict in the advanced groups. Instructors are also required to instruct in the Medium group if a driver wants an instructor.

The educational process isn't limited to the time when you're driving. Aside from classroom instruction that I personally provide, if an instructor has a passenger seat, s/he is required to take a student with him every time s/he goes out, unless there's a really good reason not to do so. Aside from being a total blast (for many novices, more fun than driving themselves), this is very educational. Many novices have said that they were struggling with understanding some concepts an instructor was trying to convey until they went out for a ride at speed. At that point, they saw why the instructor was saying what s/he was saying when the student was driving. Additionally, my instructors have some really cool cars. At the Glen in October, off the top of my head, instructor cars included two '04 996 Cup cars, a GT3, various other Porsches in full race trim and some well-prepped Z06 Corvettes. At the Glen event in May I expect a good friend of mine who has a Radical distributorship to be there with several Radicals. These are full closed-wheel race cars (which amazingly are street legal in England, where they're made) that are basically go-karts on steroids. Best of all (as it relates to students at TracQuest events), they have 2 seats. Rides in Radicals have been a regular occurrence at TracQuest events on the West Coast for some time now (Mark Dalen and D.J., who frequent the Rennlist boards because they're Porsche guys, were the first to get Radicals about a year and a half ago), and I expect that now to be true at East Coast events as well.

So, in the final analysis, what are the odds that you're going to come into contact with another car? Based on experience (at my events and other well run events), I'd have to say miniscule. For 11 years I was very proud to be able to say that I had never had car to car contact in over 40 events. I can't say that any more because of something that happened at Willow Springs in September, but it truly was a freak accident caused by the combined boneheadedness (a new word I just made up) of a particular student and the instructor who was in the car with him. It's kind of a long story, but if you want the specific details, let me know and I'll be happy to provide them - privately or publicly. Ironically, though, it was a "ricer" car (a Spec Miata race car) that was hit by a Porsche. The driver of the Miata has actually posted in this thread in support of my events.

Finally, while it (thankfully!) appears that the hostilities are over, I feel the need to address your comment about posting on a public forum, lest others think it's correct and conduct themselves accordingly as a result. An open forum on the Internet, like this one, is no different than any other part of the public when it comes to the law governing defamation and trade disparagement. People are "free" to post what they want only in so far as physically being able to have a post appear on the board, at least for as long as the board owner or moderator will allow it. That has nothing to do with legal liability, however. From a legal standpoint, posting something here is no different than saying it in an article in a written publication or speaking it to any number of people at a physical gathering. It's a communication to at least one other person, and that's all that's required to give rise to liability. Trust me on this one - I'm an Intellectual Property lawyer - primarily a litigator - with over 20 years of experience.

I hope you can make it to the Glen in May. I'll have at least one instructor there with a GT3, and of course I have a GT2, so there will be people there with lots of specific experience in your car (or, in my case, one very similar to it). This isn't necessary, as my instructors are very good at teaching in a wide variety of cars, but many students like to have an instructor for at least part of the time who has experience in his/her particular car.

If you have any other questions about TracQuest events, or anything else having to do with your car or track events in general, let me know, either here or via private email.

PogueMoHone

Wow!

I just read this entire thread, and it seems to me that Todd and Watt are like two tangents on a circle. Let me provide a possible intersection point.

I think Watt used "safe" in the context of going to the track with a small group of 8-10 known people versus going to a larger event (Tracquest). In that context I would agree with Watt, and it's probably even cheaper. The "wild west" adjective, I assume, was merely literary license in the context of the unknown drivers.

Todd, on the other hand, runs excellent events and is very proactive about making changes to constantly improve them. Yes, I have attended (and will continue) them!

By far the greatest "danger" at either type of event is a renegade instructor or a recalcitrant student and both these situations would (and have) probably get addressed with equal urgency at either type of event.

Now with regard to the high school "attitude" we used to a saying when we were chasing girls "love me or hate me, but don't ignore me". In other words, any attention is good!.

In summary, the business attention that Tracquest has gotten should make up for the "loss" on the side markers, because doubts about it's organization have been erased. Maybe Watt should even get another bottle of wine!.

I'm confident in saying that if you drive "within your limits" there is a very low probability of an incident at a Tracquest event.

It's time to kiss and make up guys.

mds

Colm, I disagree. Kim is correct. The greatest risk is not due to someone else, it is due to the driver's own mistakes.

PogueMoHone

I think that is exactly what I was saying..or meant to say. We're on the same page

rockitman

No problem Metal...I was a little high strung on my Starbucks. You good will humor is taken gladly. Thanks for clearing the air...

Steve in FL

Todd: Have you gotten much instructor resistance to the policy of always having a passenger when running in their sessions? I don't think it's a policy I'd be comfortable with. While I do find it can be helpful to take a student out in my car to emphasize something I'm trying to teach I don't want it to become a demonstration of "this is what one of these cars is capable of" so I almost never drive at the level I would alone when I have a student as a passenger.

Todd Serota [TracQuest]

Hi Colm:

Good to hear from you. I wondered when you'd weigh in.

I've been to a number of private track days over the years, and have also organized them or helped to "run" them for friends on occasion. I hope this won't seem biased to everyone reading this thread because I primarily run "structured" events, but I think it's important for everyone to understand some critical differences between private track days and structured events so they can make fully informed choices.

Advantages of private track days as compared with structured events:

1) Less cars, so fewer cars on the track with you, and theoretically more track time. I say theoretically because it doesn't always work out that way. Usually there are no run groups at private track days so you can go out whenever you want. Because of that freedom, people often hang out in the pits socializing, thinking, "should I go out now? No need to rush, since I have the entire day." People also wind up arriving on the later side and leaving on the earlier side. By the end of the day, they may well have gotten less actual time on the track than in a structured environment.

2) Sometimes lower cost - people doing private track days don't have all of the safety personnel that are present at a structured event, in part because it's felt that they're not needed, and in part because having them for only 8-10 people (the cost of such personnel is independent of how many people are involved in the event) would make the event cost prohibitive. So, the only costs are the track rental fee, insurance and maybe some sandwiches. Depending on the track, this can be less than at a structured event. Usually it's $200-$300 per person, while one day fees for my events varies from $325 to $450 depending on the track. Of course, my events also include very expensive food, but we're only talking about cost at the moment, not what you get for it. That will come in a second.

3) You or someone else in the group knows everyone because it's by invitation only. This usually isn't a bad thing, but it's not completely within your control. If one of the other group members invited a buddy of his who's a yahoo, you're stuck with him for the day.

Disadvantages of private track days as compared with structured events:

1) There are no corner workers, ambulance or fire rescue personnel. Not having these personnel is considered an acceptable risk by the people who go to private track days, but it needs to be understood that it is a risk. With no corner workers, there is no way for you to receive communication concerning what has happened on the track in front of you. If a car spins and winds up in the middle of the track around or over a blind corner, you're going to t-bone him when you get there. It's a similar problem is a car dumps oil and you hit it with no warning. Now, the odds on something happening are admittedly smaller because there are fewer cars, but people do spin and go off at private track days, and there are no flaggers to let you know that something has happened. Additionally, while the chance of getting injured at both private and structured track events us minimal, if something does happen, there are no fire rescue personnel there to put out a fire or pry you out of your car, there are no paramedics to give you emergency medial assistance and there is no ambulance to get you to immediate medical treatment.

2) There is usually no instruction - most of the time guys just get together and go to the track. Hopefully some of the drivers are very experienced or instructors in their own right and are willing to instruct a bit, but the vast amount of the time drivers are on the track they are either out alone, or with one of their similarly inexperienced buddies in the passenger seat. Now, some complete novices know enough to know not to go to this type of event because there's no instruction, but there's also a danger for people with a number of events under their belts. They know just enough, and their confidence is just high enough, to be dangerous, primarily to themselves. This is no different than at a structured event; I've found that drivers with 5 to 15 events are the mostly likely to go off track and/or hit something because they feel they've mastered the basics and gone slowly, learning the line, smoothness, etc. for long enough, and now's the time to put it all together. However, there is a full compliment of instructors for these people at structured events. Even if the private guys hire an instructor for the day, he can only go out with one car at a time, and everyone else goes out alone.

Aside from the danger element of not having instructors, you also won't learn anything without one, and if you're making mistakes, you'll continue to make them. This is a common problem for Intermediate drivers. They're capable enough to drive alone without being dangerous, but they still have a lot to learn and instructors are needed for that. I know many advanced drivers who have been driving for years but are still 2 to 4 seconds off of the limit of their cars because they haven't gotten the right instructor to "take them to the next level."

3) Usually there's no structure at all, and people need to know how to behave when they're on the track. I'm a big one for treating people like the mature adults they are and only having rules that are necessary. Some are necessary, though, like passing rules: where will passing be allowed, how will it be allowed (right, left or both) and what the passing signals are. People need to know about entering and exiting the track surface, getting back on track when they go off, the right way and the wrong way to go off and numerous other things that I routinely cover at TracQuest driver meetings.

4) Private track days can only exist at the smaller, less "big deal" tracks. Ten guys can't get together and rent Laguna Seca or Infineon, for example, for numerous reasons. If you want to run at those great tracks, you've got to do it at a structured event, or by paying thousands of dollars to run with Skip Barber (Laguna) or Jim Russell (Infineon) in their cars. There's one excellent group in No. Cal. called PDC that runs one one-day semi-structured event at Laguna Seca per year, but that's as close as you'll get to a private track day. And I would add that attendance at PDC events is by invitation only, for people with at least 10 track events worth of experience.

5) Believe it or not, it starts to get boring when you're the only car on the track. It's fun to drive around other cars and watch how they handle particular corners. Often times at TracQuest events it's essentially open track at the very end of the second day, with only 3 or 4 cars on the track. Many come in before they have to because they miss passing, and being passed by, other cars.

6) At a structured event there are lots of people there to assist you if something goes wrong with your car - mechanics, people with all kinds of tools, etc.

7) At most structured events students get to go out for rides with instructors. At TracQuest events, as I mentioned in my post to Rockitman, instructors are required to take students with them when they go out. This is often as much fun as, or even more fun than, driving yourself.

So, as you can see, each type of event has its advantages and disadvantages. Which one you prefer is up to you, and some people do both. Two things common to both, though:

1) Both are a lot safer than driving hard on the street; and
2) Aside from factors that are beyond your control, at either type of event you will be as safe as you want to be. How your car looks at the end of an event is directly related to how hard your right foot pushes on the loud pedal.

Todd Serota [TracQuest]

Hi Steve:

I've gotten no resistance. In fact, most of my instructors would do it on their own anyway because they really enjoy it and agree that it's a big part of the learning process for students. Aside from being fun for students, I've had many students say that the most they learned during the entire event was when they were riding with instructors. I know this was true for me when I first stared in POC 18 years ago. I bugged every one of the fastest drivers to take me out for rides as much as possible, and to drive my car at or close to the limit with me in the passenger seat. I got up to speed much faster as a result.

I can't speak for you, but I don't think you'd have a problem with this if you were instructing for me, for two primary reasons. First, I use the word "required" loosely. Some instructors don't have passenger seats, so they can't take anyone for a ride (at least not safely ). Others need to go out alone at times for various reasons - preparation for a race, tire/suspension testing. corner balancing, etc. I simply tell my instructors the goal and leave it to them to use their judgment to take students with them as much as possible. I know I virtually never go out alone, which is why I'm famous (ok, more like infamous! ) for stating my lap times with a passenger when asked.

Second, no instructor ever has to drive harder than s/he feels comfortable. Aside from that, every instructor should drive at least a little bit easier with a passenger in the car since someone else's safety is additionally at risk. As you know, though, if you're a very experienced driver, you don't have to back off much in order to provide a relatively big safety margin. The most dangerous part of pushing a car to its limits (and thus the last thing that drivers master) is corner entry speed. Braking at exactly the right moment so that you are at exactly the maximum speed at which you can enter a corner, lap after lap, is damn hard. Indeed it's one of the primary things that separates the pros from really good amateurs. As compared to times when you're really pushing hard, if you just take couple of mph off of your entry speed at every corner, so you're under complete control every time, the safety margin goes up dramatically. Meanwhile, your student passenger likely won't even recognize the difference. He's too busy embedding his finger nails into your dashboard! If that's not enough, back off more, to the point where you're totally comfortable with the situation.

What do you think? Does that make you more comfortable?

MetalSolid

Hey Rockit, I know how that coffee can get... I've actually been thinking about moving to NY, but not sure how I'd cope with not being able to drive the GT3 months on end. Come out Cali, great driving roads & weather here.

rockitman

Todd:
Thanks for taking the time to address my concerns regarding DE's. From what you have said, I am interested in attending one of your events. Perhaps if I can get my act together, I will make it out to the Glen in May. I am roughly a 4 hour drive away. It would be cool to visit and run on a track that I witnessed Jackie Stewart race his F1 car back in the 1969 US Grand Prix when he was in a Ford Matra. Sadly he did not finish the race (Blown engine). I will study your web site and hopefully make a decision to sign up in March. Thanks again. :-)

Todd Serota [TracQuest]

Your act is together, Rockit. You've got a GT3!

Watkins Glen is a great track, espeically for a car like the GT3 (it's a hp track). You should still be ok by the beginning of March, but don't wait too much longer than that if you do want to sign up. Both Glen events sold out last year.

If you have any questions after reviewing the "Driver Education - How It All Works" section of the TQ site, let me know.

Btw, where's Clifton Park, NY?

rockitman

Clifton Park is twenty minutes north of Albany. Currently, I am trying to decide if I want to buy a trailer to tow the GT3 around. I am wondering if I will have any rubber left on my tires after two days of tracking to make the drive home. Sadly, there just is not enough room to carry an extra set of wheels/tires

macfly

instructors are required to take students with them when they go out. This is often as much fun as, or even more fun than, driving yourself.
I have to say that being out with the instructors is really incredible. You really understand the pysics of both the car and the line when taken at the speed they go. Many instructors race, and many come to the events with their race tired cars. Being in a race tire shod car driven by someone who is really good is the best possible education, and an absolute blast. Over the last 3 years I have become a track day junkie, and I've learnt as much, if not more from being a passenger! (and I've still got TQ's DE to look forward to, plus I'm very interested by the concept of gourmet food at a track, it's almost an oxymoron!)

The greatest risk is not due to someone else, it is due to the driver's own mistakes.
This is an absolute fact, so if you are worrying about hurting your car my advice is avoid tracks with things to hit. I really like Willow Springs, Fontana and Vegas because there is a lot of run off room in nearly every corner.

I went to Sears/Infineon once, and wouldn't go back, you might as well be in the streets of LA for all the concrete there is to hit, and Laguna too, while set in pretty park, has an aweful lot of concrete placed in very bad places, inside turn 6, and turns 9 & 11 claim a lot of cars, even at very safely run DE's.

Which brings me back to my first point, go to a DE, not to drive, but just check it out, and get a drive with an instructor. You'll see immediatly if it gives you enough space for your errors.

Steve in FL

Todd: Part of my concern with having a student as a passenger is that I don't want them to be demonstrating how observant they were of my corner entry speeds when I'm back to being their passenger. That's why, and I think we both agree, laps with students are best done at 9/10ths. If I always had a passenger and was doing a whole day of track time at 9/10ths I'd be bored and less motivated to attend a DE as an instructor. Of course I think I've now promised enough rides in the GT3 (when it finally arrives) that I'm going to be stuck at 9/10ths for the rest of the year.