Did my first DE!
06-24-2017, 02:41 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Did my first DE!
The other day I did my first DE at Blackhawk Farms. I was definitely nervous going into it, as many of you may know from one of my previous posts. But man, what a great experience it was! I will definitely be doing more track events. Getting to push the car in a way you just can't on the street was eye opening in many ways. The first eye opening way is finding out just how much I need to learn, and the second is just how capable the car is. I was certainly no Senna or Stig out there, but in a couple ways I did surprise myself.
Now for the bad part. The car got hot. Way too hot for my comfort and I cut each session short. Probably twelve or thirteen minutes into the twenty minute sessions. It was not confidence inspiring seeing the temp needle climb up to the right tick mark. I had the heat on full blast in the cabin and that didn't seem to have much effect. I did have similar hot temps on the Tail of The Dragon last year which prompted me to replace my water pump and thermostat. So now I'm seriously looking to adding a center rad.
The oil pressure did dip a little bit as well on some of the turns, like the long left hand sweeper. I was focused on driving so it was difficulty to peel my attention away from the track mid turn, but I did manage a glance or to and it was probably at about 2.5 bar or a tad higher. I'm guessing this might also be because of the higher coolant temps becaus I'm running street tires and not pulling some insane Gs.
And then tires. The Continental Extreme Contact Sport tires I'm running are pretty good on the street, and were decent for the first few laps on the track. But after five or six laps they definitely got greasy and the old gal's heavy a$$ started sliding out a bit. Nothing crazy, but enough to get my attention. And I know these aren't track tires, and I didn't purchase them with that assumption at all, but I'll definitely be looking for recommendations for new shoes for the car. I'm considering going back to Pilot Super Sports, which I had on my Boxster S, and found to be great rubber for carving up canyons and mountain roads in SoCal. Ideally I want some rubber that will last a decent amount of time and be okay for a few track days.
The novice group that I ran in was very full. I don't know exactly how many cars were out, but it felt like a ton and many people were not very good at all with giving point bys and were jamming up traffic. And honestly it was a little scary being around some drivers that seemed like they were trying too hard and were on the verge of spinning or going off track.
But all in all it was a great experience. And KrazyK was wrong about the 996. It didn't blow up after turn one. It was just such a pleasure driving it hard and learning more of what the car can do. I can't wait to keep exploring the car and learn a lot more about track driving.
Now for the bad part. The car got hot. Way too hot for my comfort and I cut each session short. Probably twelve or thirteen minutes into the twenty minute sessions. It was not confidence inspiring seeing the temp needle climb up to the right tick mark. I had the heat on full blast in the cabin and that didn't seem to have much effect. I did have similar hot temps on the Tail of The Dragon last year which prompted me to replace my water pump and thermostat. So now I'm seriously looking to adding a center rad.
The oil pressure did dip a little bit as well on some of the turns, like the long left hand sweeper. I was focused on driving so it was difficulty to peel my attention away from the track mid turn, but I did manage a glance or to and it was probably at about 2.5 bar or a tad higher. I'm guessing this might also be because of the higher coolant temps becaus I'm running street tires and not pulling some insane Gs.
And then tires. The Continental Extreme Contact Sport tires I'm running are pretty good on the street, and were decent for the first few laps on the track. But after five or six laps they definitely got greasy and the old gal's heavy a$$ started sliding out a bit. Nothing crazy, but enough to get my attention. And I know these aren't track tires, and I didn't purchase them with that assumption at all, but I'll definitely be looking for recommendations for new shoes for the car. I'm considering going back to Pilot Super Sports, which I had on my Boxster S, and found to be great rubber for carving up canyons and mountain roads in SoCal. Ideally I want some rubber that will last a decent amount of time and be okay for a few track days.
The novice group that I ran in was very full. I don't know exactly how many cars were out, but it felt like a ton and many people were not very good at all with giving point bys and were jamming up traffic. And honestly it was a little scary being around some drivers that seemed like they were trying too hard and were on the verge of spinning or going off track.
But all in all it was a great experience. And KrazyK was wrong about the 996. It didn't blow up after turn one. It was just such a pleasure driving it hard and learning more of what the car can do. I can't wait to keep exploring the car and learn a lot more about track driving.
06-24-2017, 03:07 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
My first DE was at Blackhawk. And my car (then, an 88 911) also got too hot. But you are safe and sound and so is your car, and that's the most important thing.
People forget that these street Porsche's are designed at the very edge of weight, reliability, and performance. So just add a decade or two and it's no surprise that temps gets up there a bit. PORSCHE = Plenty Of Receipts, Sorry, Can't Have Everything.
Just about all these 996s get hot and/or drop pressure in some turns. It's "normal dysfunction," and so is our "normal paranoia" about them.
As much as we know the 10 things that can kill this car, there are many folks that track them without issues.
But isn't it wonderful that you did this event and experienced it? Beginners are surprised by the capabilities of their cars, but others cars, not just Porsche's have this feeling as well. I was following my buddy's E46 M3 around the track, and you can be sure his car produced a very similar feeling as our 911s. I rode in a GTR that day. Same feeling, only more acceleration, more corning force, better braking (although for braking, it's hard to beat a 911 quite honestly),
I always ran street tires on my DEs and didn't have the greasiness issue. I have Michelin AS 3+ now and was amazed at how I couldn't get the rear end or even the front end to unstick very easily. I probably wasn't pushing it enough either (2:54 at Autobahn ain't exactly fast).
My biggest complaint about DEs is the variance in driver skill. The problem is that people get to pick their own skill level most of the time, which is backwards.
People forget that these street Porsche's are designed at the very edge of weight, reliability, and performance. So just add a decade or two and it's no surprise that temps gets up there a bit. PORSCHE = Plenty Of Receipts, Sorry, Can't Have Everything.
Just about all these 996s get hot and/or drop pressure in some turns. It's "normal dysfunction," and so is our "normal paranoia" about them.
As much as we know the 10 things that can kill this car, there are many folks that track them without issues.
But isn't it wonderful that you did this event and experienced it? Beginners are surprised by the capabilities of their cars, but others cars, not just Porsche's have this feeling as well. I was following my buddy's E46 M3 around the track, and you can be sure his car produced a very similar feeling as our 911s. I rode in a GTR that day. Same feeling, only more acceleration, more corning force, better braking (although for braking, it's hard to beat a 911 quite honestly),
I always ran street tires on my DEs and didn't have the greasiness issue. I have Michelin AS 3+ now and was amazed at how I couldn't get the rear end or even the front end to unstick very easily. I probably wasn't pushing it enough either (2:54 at Autobahn ain't exactly fast).
My biggest complaint about DEs is the variance in driver skill. The problem is that people get to pick their own skill level most of the time, which is backwards.
06-24-2017, 07:02 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Congratulations, glad you had fun, and welcome to the slippery slope!! 
I would not recommend the 3rd radiator. It adds weight, and for DE purposes, is not really needed. I've run DE in 100+F weather at VIR open track with 30 or more minute runs with out any overheating issues. In short, if you are overheating or close to it, then something is amiss with your current cooling system. Spend your money instead on troubleshooting and fixing the system. You've replaced the thermostat and water pump, might be time to look at the radiators.
For tires that turn greasy after several laps, you might try playing with tire pressures on your current tires first before playing with different tire brands. Cheaper that way For street tires, some recommend raising the pressures a few pounds to keep the tires from overheating. Some also say check your tire pressure immediately after coming off track and bring the pressures down to the recommended cold pressures. See which one works for you.
As to the run groups and inconsiderate drivers, you'll move up as you get more track time and you'll start running with better people. Some clubs are pretty strict in enforcing passing rules, black flagging offenders to give them a talking to in the pits, then kicking out repeat offenders. You'll find out which clubs run a better DE than others in your area, and you can then stick with those clubs.
Have fun, be safe, the properly maintained 996 is a great track car!!
I would not recommend the 3rd radiator. It adds weight, and for DE purposes, is not really needed. I've run DE in 100+F weather at VIR open track with 30 or more minute runs with out any overheating issues. In short, if you are overheating or close to it, then something is amiss with your current cooling system. Spend your money instead on troubleshooting and fixing the system. You've replaced the thermostat and water pump, might be time to look at the radiators.
For tires that turn greasy after several laps, you might try playing with tire pressures on your current tires first before playing with different tire brands. Cheaper that way
For street tires, some recommend raising the pressures a few pounds to keep the tires from overheating. Some also say check your tire pressure immediately after coming off track and bring the pressures down to the recommended cold pressures. See which one works for you.As to the run groups and inconsiderate drivers, you'll move up as you get more track time and you'll start running with better people. Some clubs are pretty strict in enforcing passing rules, black flagging offenders to give them a talking to in the pits, then kicking out repeat offenders. You'll find out which clubs run a better DE than others in your area, and you can then stick with those clubs.
Have fun, be safe, the properly maintained 996 is a great track car!!
06-24-2017, 10:11 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
Congratulations on your first DE
I am in my second year of doing them, and it is ton of fun.
As someone mentioned previously, adding the third radiator doesn't sound right. More likely you have some other issue that should be corrected.
The oil pressure drop maybe helped with an X51 oil sump baffle.
I would also suggest getting a pair of GT3 front air ducks to help keep the front brakes cool.
I am in my second year of doing them, and it is ton of fun.
As someone mentioned previously, adding the third radiator doesn't sound right. More likely you have some other issue that should be corrected.
The oil pressure drop maybe helped with an X51 oil sump baffle.
I would also suggest getting a pair of GT3 front air ducks to help keep the front brakes cool.
06-25-2017, 09:40 AM
#7
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Also
The other day I did my first DE at Blackhawk Farms. I was definitely nervous going into it, as many of you may know from one of my previous posts. But man, what a great experience it was! I will definitely be doing more track events. Getting to push the car in a way you just can't on the street was eye opening in many ways. The first eye opening way is finding out just how much I need to learn, and the second is just how capable the car is. I was certainly no Senna or Stig out there, but in a couple ways I did surprise myself.
Now for the bad part. The car got hot. Way too hot for my comfort and I cut each session short. Probably twelve or thirteen minutes into the twenty minute sessions. It was not confidence inspiring seeing the temp needle climb up to the right tick mark. I had the heat on full blast in the cabin and that didn't seem to have much effect. I did have similar hot temps on the Tail of The Dragon last year which prompted me to replace my water pump and thermostat. So now I'm seriously looking to adding a center rad.
The oil pressure did dip a little bit as well on some of the turns, like the long left hand sweeper. I was focused on driving so it was difficulty to peel my attention away from the track mid turn, but I did manage a glance or to and it was probably at about 2.5 bar or a tad higher. I'm guessing this might also be because of the higher coolant temps becaus I'm running street tires and not pulling some insane Gs.
And then tires. The Continental Extreme Contact Sport tires I'm running are pretty good on the street, and were decent for the first few laps on the track. But after five or six laps they definitely got greasy and the old gal's heavy a$$ started sliding out a bit. Nothing crazy, but enough to get my attention. And I know these aren't track tires, and I didn't purchase them with that assumption at all, but I'll definitely be looking for recommendations for new shoes for the car. I'm considering going back to Pilot Super Sports, which I had on my Boxster S, and found to be great rubber for carving up canyons and mountain roads in SoCal. Ideally I want some rubber that will last a decent amount of time and be okay for a few track days.
The novice group that I ran in was very full. I don't know exactly how many cars were out, but it felt like a ton and many people were not very good at all with giving point bys and were jamming up traffic. And honestly it was a little scary being around some drivers that seemed like they were trying too hard and were on the verge of spinning or going off track.
But all in all it was a great experience. And KrazyK was wrong about the 996. It didn't blow up after turn one. It was just such a pleasure driving it hard and learning more of what the car can do. I can't wait to keep exploring the car and learn a lot more about track driving.
Now for the bad part. The car got hot. Way too hot for my comfort and I cut each session short. Probably twelve or thirteen minutes into the twenty minute sessions. It was not confidence inspiring seeing the temp needle climb up to the right tick mark. I had the heat on full blast in the cabin and that didn't seem to have much effect. I did have similar hot temps on the Tail of The Dragon last year which prompted me to replace my water pump and thermostat. So now I'm seriously looking to adding a center rad.
The oil pressure did dip a little bit as well on some of the turns, like the long left hand sweeper. I was focused on driving so it was difficulty to peel my attention away from the track mid turn, but I did manage a glance or to and it was probably at about 2.5 bar or a tad higher. I'm guessing this might also be because of the higher coolant temps becaus I'm running street tires and not pulling some insane Gs.
And then tires. The Continental Extreme Contact Sport tires I'm running are pretty good on the street, and were decent for the first few laps on the track. But after five or six laps they definitely got greasy and the old gal's heavy a$$ started sliding out a bit. Nothing crazy, but enough to get my attention. And I know these aren't track tires, and I didn't purchase them with that assumption at all, but I'll definitely be looking for recommendations for new shoes for the car. I'm considering going back to Pilot Super Sports, which I had on my Boxster S, and found to be great rubber for carving up canyons and mountain roads in SoCal. Ideally I want some rubber that will last a decent amount of time and be okay for a few track days.
The novice group that I ran in was very full. I don't know exactly how many cars were out, but it felt like a ton and many people were not very good at all with giving point bys and were jamming up traffic. And honestly it was a little scary being around some drivers that seemed like they were trying too hard and were on the verge of spinning or going off track.
But all in all it was a great experience. And KrazyK was wrong about the 996. It didn't blow up after turn one. It was just such a pleasure driving it hard and learning more of what the car can do. I can't wait to keep exploring the car and learn a lot more about track driving.
the only problem is I went wide and caught a rough area with my left rear tire. I either threw a weight or bent the rim. When I got home I heard an engine noise. I might be the internals of the cat loosened up.
I played with the psm , I turned it off, but realized it wasn't intruding unless I really screwed up, so I turned it back on. Used ate 200 brake fluid and stock pads. No problem. It's an amazing car!
Glenn
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06-25-2017, 09:57 AM
#8
Three Wheelin'
You don't need a third radiator, yet. Engine overheating after less than 20 minutes of hard driving? Something in your system is not operating correctly. You should be able to drive your car across the desert for hours doing 85+ mph in 95 degree heat without overheating. If my former stock 1984 chevrolet cavalier can do it I'm fairly sure a Porsche 996 is designed to do it.
06-25-2017, 10:12 AM
#9
Rennlist Member
If the light didn't come on it's not overheating. Make sure your radiators are clean between the condenser and the radiator. You can also add a bottle of Water Wetter and that will help as well.
As for the GT3 brake duct comment, the issue with them is the are designed for a much larger rotor. So you end up channeling a whole lot of air to where your rotor would be if you had a GT3.
As for the GT3 brake duct comment, the issue with them is the are designed for a much larger rotor. So you end up channeling a whole lot of air to where your rotor would be if you had a GT3.
06-25-2017, 11:06 AM
#10
Rennlist Member
I dunno, the right tick mark on the temp gauge might be 230F or more. That's going to be putting a lot of pressure on the cooling system to keep from boiling. That probably also means oil is near 250F.
I agree that it might not technically be overheating, but sure seems warm and would be too warm for my comfort as well.
I agree that it might not technically be overheating, but sure seems warm and would be too warm for my comfort as well.
06-25-2017, 11:09 AM
#11
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks everyone for the great responses! I'll definitely be doing more DEs, and down the slippery slope I'll go. Murphyslaw, "PORSCHE = Plenty Of Receipts, Sorry, Can't Have Everything", I've never heard that one before but it rings true! And yes it was a little dissapointing having to run with some people that didn't understand the concept of letting you pass, even after they had gotten multiple blue flags. Again, I definitely belong in the novice group, but I still think some drivers should maybe be in an extra novice group.
Palting, thanks for the tips! This week I'll be pulling my bumper off for another round of cleaning the radiators. What ways, aside from big gaping holes and damage, can I visually see if my radiators just need to be replaced? During normal day to day driving, and even some of my "spirited" back country road driving the temps usually stay pretty center in the gauge. Stuck in really bad traffic on a hot day or spirited driving in especially high temps (like I experienced at the tail of the dragon) brought the needle fairly far to the right. I know the light wasn't flashing so it wasn't "overheating", I just get freaked out seeing the needle tilting to the right of the third line.
JayG I'm going to look those up, thanks!
One other thing I do need to change on my car. The seats. In the turns my butt was sliding, despite the fact that my helmet clad head was partially keeping me place since it was lodged against the roof. I have the fully electric seats, and they just ride too high for me. Finding some manual sport seats is probably going to happen in the near future. Not quite ready for bucket seats, as I like to be able to tilt the seats forward to put stuff in the back, as well as the occasional small human passenger.
Palting, thanks for the tips! This week I'll be pulling my bumper off for another round of cleaning the radiators. What ways, aside from big gaping holes and damage, can I visually see if my radiators just need to be replaced? During normal day to day driving, and even some of my "spirited" back country road driving the temps usually stay pretty center in the gauge. Stuck in really bad traffic on a hot day or spirited driving in especially high temps (like I experienced at the tail of the dragon) brought the needle fairly far to the right. I know the light wasn't flashing so it wasn't "overheating", I just get freaked out seeing the needle tilting to the right of the third line.
JayG I'm going to look those up, thanks!
One other thing I do need to change on my car. The seats. In the turns my butt was sliding, despite the fact that my helmet clad head was partially keeping me place since it was lodged against the roof. I have the fully electric seats, and they just ride too high for me. Finding some manual sport seats is probably going to happen in the near future. Not quite ready for bucket seats, as I like to be able to tilt the seats forward to put stuff in the back, as well as the occasional small human passenger.
06-25-2017, 11:24 AM
#12
Rennlist Member
250 is fairly standard for oil temp on track. DT40 is only rated for 240, that's why it is not recommended for track use.
This will help some with the sliding:
CG Lock Performance Add-On for Your Seatbelt CG-Lock https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0010E7OB8..._4F8tzb6QBP5FT
As for better street/track seats, I'm struggling with the same thing for my DD. My track car has a halo seat which is awesome. But I would like something that was fairly comfortable for daily use and would accept a 5 point harness for the track.
This will help some with the sliding:
CG Lock Performance Add-On for Your Seatbelt CG-Lock https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0010E7OB8..._4F8tzb6QBP5FT
As for better street/track seats, I'm struggling with the same thing for my DD. My track car has a halo seat which is awesome. But I would like something that was fairly comfortable for daily use and would accept a 5 point harness for the track.
06-25-2017, 12:03 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Lower Tstat?
06-25-2017, 12:27 PM
#14
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...And yes it was a little dissapointing having to run with some people that didn't understand the concept of letting you pass, even after they had gotten multiple blue flags. Again, I definitely belong in the novice group, but I still think some drivers should maybe be in an extra novice group.