Woodman71

Or an empty PBR can.

fpb111

It is probably easier to go through the spark plug holes with the bore scope. How was the hot oil pressure?
And maybe Just a dumb? question. Did you check all of your idler pulleys and water pump for loose noisy bearings?

Schnell Gelb

Unfortunately you can't see the bore scoring on the M96 via spark plug holes. The damage(if it is present) is obscured by the piston even at BDC. Hence the need to access via the sump with piston at TDC. A nuisance !

Stephen Tinker

A good point, but if the knocking is from an ancilliary, how do you account for the steel paste attached to the magnetic sump plug?

Steel is used only in the IMS bearing, crankshaft, camshafts and timing chains / sprockets, while if it was copper the main and big end bearings would be the culprit.

fpb111

Thank you for the correction. I though some of it might be visible above the piston.

fpb111

Two different problems?
If it is a failing IMS pluck the trans out and replace again with the bearing of choice.

fpb111

Just out of curiosity why are we ignoring the Tribology diagnosis?

What were the second UOA results?

The engine has 100k on it. Are we cleaning up old crud?

The mechanic put fresh Mobil or Motul oil, OP changed it after 5k miles, add a magnetic plug then? , not much paste at that time, then again with JG oil when he saw iron paste. Mobil1 and Motul are pretty high detergent oils.
Is JG high detergent? What does the mag-plug look like now?
If it is bearings where is the paste coming from? If it is bore scoring where is the paste coming from?

relinuca

As suggested by UOP, continue getting oil analysis to establish a trend.

But frankly, as you noted, the copper, lead, and iron are quite high...this is not going to end well. At a minimum, I would suggest shortening the oil/filter change intervals to hopefully buy some time, and avoid high rpms.

relinuca

Noz1974

Andrew why don't you get the cylinders bore scoped , this will tell you if it's a scored cylinder or not, it sounds that way to me I'm afraid , noisy lifters usually only rattle on cold start for a few seconds then go quiet as they pump back up with oil, your noise seems constant , if the cylinders scope out ok I would say big end or main bearing possibly.
I know guys who have had problems with engines and bought a replacement from a good dismantler, if you get one bore scoped compression and leak down tested and get a decent warranty It might work out a lot cheaper than a mega rebuild as it gets pricey as you have discovered , a lot of parts go in the bin when you take apart and costs stack up just getting the engine back together never mind improvements , your looking 3k in bolts and gaskets and bearings before anything else, I know this means your running a risk of it happening again but if it's properly tested with warranty it might help out unless you got loads of cash spare and the missus don't mind you being in the garage for the foreseeable !!

Andrew Stowell

Vertex sells a complete rebuilt engine for $13k. I don't see a shortblock or anything like that. I haven't heard good reviews about them.

They do sell a rebuild kit for $1949, but I'm not sure that has everything I need in it. It might be a good start at least.

I don't make $50 an hour and I'm salary, so I don't get a penny more no matter how much overtime I work. I don't mind spending a lot of free time rebuilding an engine if it will save me thousands of dollars. I would consider it a fun project. It's just an issue of how much do I really have to spend in parts and can I rebuild it without screwing it up.

Hot oil pressure was fine as far as I remember. It would fluctuate a fair amount at constant RPM and load. Like if it was at 3 it would oscillate between 2.5 and 3.5

I didn't really confirm all the pulleys weren't making noise, but there is enough metal in the oil to be concerned regardless.

I'm pretty confident the IMS is not the issue. It was replaced 6k miles ago and the old bearing with over 100k miles on it was in great shape. That's not to say it couldn't get damaged from the contaminated oil, but I doubt it is the primary problem.

There isn't a second UOA. I bought the car and had an oil change done with the other work. No UOA done at that time. I did an oil change myself in November, switched to JG and had a UOA done.

Drained the oil this weekend to take off the sump and I'm not getting a UOA done on this oil. What I can see looking inside the engine is more important going forward. I'm not paying $140 for more oil and another UOA if the engine is going to get pulled.

Something made of copper is wearing a lot, the flakes in the oil filter tell me that. The iron paste, could be related to the bearing wear, or something else grinding and that iron is damaging the bearings.

I'm considering this. It would be the cheapest option in the short term and if I'm not rebuilding the engine, it doesn't matter if it gets damaged further.

If I can repair or rebuild the engine cheap enough, I would rather do that. And even if I swap the engine, I'll pull the engine and sell it if it has more value as it is now versus with more damage. It's not clear how much someone would pay for a good core to rebuild over a more seriously damaged engine though.

I ran out of time this weekend, but I will finish scoping the cylinders before I do anything else. I have reason to believe the rod or main bearings are worn significantly at this point. If the bores are scored, then I would need to spend $4600 on nickies and a rebuild looks too expensive. If the bores are OK, maybe it is worth taking the engine apart and seeing if the bearings can still be replaced, or if the crankshaft is trashed.

I'd be happy to look into any used engines out there. The few I have seen have been very expensive, like $10k. Not worth the risk of having a similar problem after spending so much.

fpb111

As others have said. Good luck with this. If you have to rebuild hope no scoring is found.

Andrew Stowell

Looked at the cylinders with the borescope again yesterday. I didn't see any significant scoring. So that is good news.

It must be the rod/main bearing going bad. Something started to wear and the debris got in the bearings and now they are going bad. I can't tell what else is damaged unless I disassemble the engine. If the crankshaft and rods are damaged, I either have to give up, or risk using used parts. Not the best idea.

I have a lot of concerns about rebuilding the engine though. I can come up with a reasonable budget if I replace as few parts as I can. But the less I replace or thoroughly inspect, the higher the chance it blows up when I'm done.

Depending on how much is damaged and how much I choose to replace, the cost can quickly skyrocket. Cheapest would be about $3k, more realistic is $6, but $12k or more wouldn't be surprising. This is also assuming I can borrow or rent whatever special tools I need.

I wish there was more documentation and more people that specialize in machining for the M96. There is not much for options to recondition parts and any mistake rebuilding could kill the engine. I don't want to spend thousands of dollars on an engine that blows up in a few thousand miles.

There is a M96 enthusiast 101 online class later this month. Has anyone taken that, but not the hands on class? Does the online class tell you how to rebuild the engine or is just an introduction before you take the 102 hands on class?

I'm not sure if it is a good idea to disassemble the engine to determine the full extent of the damage. That would help me decide if I want to rebuild and if I should spend $400 on the class. I'm worried I will break something, or mix up parts if I take it apart before going through the class though.

Do you think the engine would be worth more complete, still in running condition, but disclosing the problems to the buyer? Or selling individual parts that are still good on eBay?

Schnell Gelb

Andrew, I can give only a few answers. Much depends on your skill.facilities,tool,equipment,technical ability/skills and time to acquire what you do not have. The time is a huge issue because the devil is in the details and there are many of them - hence the Raby school. I wish that class could be done entirely on-line with a video but it can not. I am housebound caring for a Parent so I could not attend. So I spent hundreds of hours gleaning all I could from the Forums and guessing the rest. It was not a smart choice.It was my only option because of my personal obligations.
After I did my rebuild one wonderful resource appeared on Rennlist - the "Cringley" M96 rebuild thread by Ahsai. He is a Raby School graduate Suma *** laude ! Read that thread and see if you can match his skill and resources.That will answer a lot of your fundamental questions.
Bare bones rebuild items for others to add to:
The bearing shells are cheap . Getting to them.....
It is usually the rearmost bearing(s)
Seldom necessary to replace rings and often a bad idea to do so.
Rod bolts - go ARP
Complete gasket set
Complete set of 24 lifters (Warehouse 33 is cheapest??).They were $50++ each when I started !
A good used Durametric Enthusiast cable with at least 1 VIN left to use. No cheapo china/Ebay ones!
Sorry I can't help more - I am struggling with an SAI and misfire problem that I need to solve to get Smog Test done.
http://986forum.com/forums/performan...er-failed.html
Did you see this ?
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...1-996-ims.html

808Bill

Look for a good used motor!