Andrew Stowell

I'll try to get a vid soon. Might try a mechanics's stethoscope to get an idea where the sound is coming from. Then I'll park it until I know what I want to do next.

AWDGuy - I've read your thread, and I think you have done an amazing job. If a $20k rebuild is the only way to do it, what would you suggest doing? Is it worth the effort to DIY, or would RND be the way to go? Should I just try to sell the car and move on, if I'm not willing to spend that much?

I'm not really looking into doing that thorough of a rebuild though. Let's assume for sake of argument, that it's a rod bearing wearing out. I wouldn't do anything to the heads, just take them off and put them aside. If the bores aren't scored, no nickies, maybe not even new rings. They work now, why mess with them? I would replace the rod, main, and wrist pin bearings. I would replace all the timing chains, tensioners, and paddles. Obviously gaskets and bolts and such. That's not a $20k rebuild, but I need to figure out if that's a $3k rebuild or an $8k rebuild.

If something else is wrong, that plan would change or I might even have to give up on rebuilding it. I would like to have a budget for different parts needing to be replaced to figure out what makes sense.

Maybe a rebuild cost $20k realistically and I would be better off having RND do it. If so, I would rather swap in a V8. Why?

1. I'm sure it cost $20k to get a crate E-Rod LS3 and all that. I know it cost $30k to have Renegade do it for you. But I think it will cost about half that to put a junkyard truck motor in it, doing everything I can myself.

2. That truck motor still makes 400 hp stock, and can easily be modified to make a lot more. 80 hp is definitely worth $12k, just look how much it costs to modify an M96 to make that much power. It's easier for me to justify spending money on an upgrade than a repair.

3. An engine swap would be a fun project I'm confident I can do. I've rebuilt engines, but the M96 seems to be a whole level more finicky and sensitive than any of the Japanese or American engines I've worked on. So the swap might be easier for me in a sense.

4. Even if it cost as much in the end to swap it, it will be broken up in a more manageable way. Instead of a $20k check to RND, it would be $3k at a time, more or less. That is acceptable over a year or two project.

AWDGuy

if I was to do it again....I would do the same thing with more attention to the details. Ask more questions.

but, I never really did anything like that in my life so just the knowledge and skills I gained was worth the pain and suffering (both to my wallet and mental state) from that whole experience.

if you want to be back to driving a reliable car in no time and have the cash for a ready-to-go RND engine, then that's what I'd do.

I looked at the LS swap, but when I was looking they didn't have all gauges working & there's 2 ECUs from what I read so depending on your emission tech - that may cause a problem. I have e tests to do where I live so I didn't want that headache.

Schnell Gelb

Andrew,
Glad you are researching the options and $$$$ before you commit.
A Mechanics stethoscope will be too imprecise.You need an "Engine Ear" by Steelman or better. And it takes some practice to use it effectively.
Read more about the few LS V8 swaps actually completed. Lots of problems,disappointments,Smog Test rejections.
Once you start down the M96 rebuild rabbit hole ,you loose control of costs because you will find that parts/machining/tools/equipment is required to do a competent job. And the more you spend, the deeper down you are....
The M96 diy rebuilders seem to be in 2 camps. The slap it together and flip it guys and the OCD geeks (guilty !)
I have one priceless advantage in my overly ambitious rebuild decision - the tolerance of a wife who has held back from commenting that the M96 rebuild indulgence cost more than all her jewellery and took longer than our courtship. And at least the jewels would be worth what we paid for them !The parts - not so much .YEMV
And please take no encouragement from the fact that my rebulit engine runs. No expert examined my work (like A Raby class) and I have done enough Inspecting of Engineering to know that is a huge issue !

Macster

Before I undertook installing a V8 into a 996 I'd have to see a finished example and see it well enough to believe the swap was more than just something that ran for a while in the garage or on the driveway.

My goal would be a car that in the end still worked as a car, as a Porsche, but of course with a different power plant. While the engine sound would be different, and the performance probably better, I wouldn't want something that ran hot, or cold, caused the CEL to come, was hard to start/idle cold or hot, cut out a any RPMs (except at redline), and so in.

In short I would want the car with the V8 in place of the flat 6 to be in every way a well behaved car not something I could only roll out to rattle the neighborhood windows once in a while.

Schnell Gelb

Agreed -but even if all your requirements are met, it is still un-Smogable in many States and then you need to disclose the mod to your Insurance. Just search some Forums for "Renegade Hybrids" .There is a thread with a much milder swap -Audi V6Turbo. I doubt that would be Smog-able without a lot of hassle.

Andrew Stowell

Got a video recorded. It sounds worse than I am used to, because it is quieter while it warms up and I normally have the radio and heat on. After filming this, I decided to park the car until I have a plan to fix it. I tried a mechanic's stethoscope and couldn't tell anything. Maybe if I jack up the car and rev it while listening. It sounds normal at idle.

https://youtu.be/3WYmVNeDmLw

sequel95

Andrew, take a look at Jud's (from Flat 6 Innovations) video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UUvHxURiDjs

I found this to be quite educational. Not sure if it will help you.

Schnell Gelb

or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRjBQB6XKXY
leading to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t673SgyzpaM

Schnell Gelb

See above #18:
A Mechanics stethoscope will be too imprecise.You need an "Engine Ear" by Steelman or better. And it takes some practice to use it effectively.
Start by listening and writing notes for each cylinder. Then move to the timing chain area.
Start each cylinder test at the spark plug ,then header,then cam cover ,then top of cylinder,then bottom,then crankshaft.
If it is a 6 speed do the same on the bellhousing and gearbox(neutral!!)
After all this you should have pages of organized notes on noise volume and type. And you may have the beginnings of a diagnosis.Until then it is just speculation.Which is fun for us but not useful for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp9kS4wwviY

808Bill

Are you trying to beat it to death?

TonyTwoBags

OP has a substantial maintenance bill in front of him. He was trying to make sure before putting a substantial amount of $$ towards it. No need to kick him while he's down.

Andrew Stowell

Drained the oil and dropped the sump today. The drain plug had a paste of iron fillings on it. All the gray stuff on the blue paper towel is iron paste.

The oil filter has a few flakes of copper on it. Tried my best to take pictures of it.

I was surprised that the sump is pretty clean. Only a couple little brown or copper bits. Guess that's better than finding chunks of engine.

Andrew Stowell

Bottom of the engine looks clean too. Only one little bit in the oil pickup.

I'm trying to borescope it now. Having trouble getting the camera to go in the cylinders. Not sure if there is some trick I'm missing.

Andrew Stowell

One of the cylinders doesn't have scoring. I know that doesn't mean anything.

I need to figure out how to get each cylinder to TDC and the right way to snake the cam in.

bpu699

Vertex offers rebuilt cores and sells rebuild kits. Still not cheap, but less than 8k I think. Check their site...

I often thought of what I would do if my engine needed a rebuild. I see folks quoting 100 - 200 hours easy the first time you do it yourself.

If you make at least $50 an hour, that 5000-10000$ of your time..

Unless your time is free and you have lots of it, you are better off parking it, working overtime, and paying someone to rebuild it.

At least, that's my life experience...