Woodman71

Jason, I remember your story and it confused me then, as it does now.

You had a 996 failure and decided to fix that - and buy a 997 as well?

Indeed, that was a unique solution!

Flat6 Innovations

If you have to experience a failure, this is THE one to have. Generally there's no collateral damages that effect the 6 major core components that we retain. The items that are damaged are among the 100 pounds of junk that we throw away, whether its good, or bad.... So there's no addition costs with this over an elective build...

Now, that said. DRAIN THE COOLING SYSTEM NOW! Why? The petroleum thats now in the system is attackinbg every hose, and reservoir within the cooling system. This includes the 29 coolant hoses throughout the car, as well as the radiators, heater core, and even the coolant tank, and valve.

If this is not done ASAP, once the engine is repaired, you'll find hoses that are so soft from damage that you can tear them in half with your bare hands. They'll blow and leave you stranded.

Learned this the hard way, many moons ago.

Once the system is drained, it must be flushed of all the mess, and we do that as soon as a car arrives using a system that we had to make from scratch just for the job.

No one else will shed light on this, but trust me, it happens.

Jason 996

Yes, It was confirmed during the rebuild to be a IMS failure. The only confusing part for me was not experiencing (or on my part possibly recognizing at time of dropping off) any issues prior to arriving to get the IMS upgrade installed. We purchased a 997.2 mainly to continue our weekend enjoyment while the rebuild took place and to participate in Track days together with my wife at the same time rather than sharing one car. This for the majority of people is not a financially smart decision due to (1) Their financial income situation (2) Spouse not having same interest in participation as my wife does. As for the hypocrisy in fixing the 996 that I recognize and point out freely on myself, and I agree. Purchasing the 997.2 was a good financial decision that I am proud with.
This is why when I read the OP post, I was compelled to offer my opinion, since I had gone through a similar decision making process. I tackle everything from a financial stand-point and it has served me well in life (except when the decision involves making my wife happy - which this did).

In his situation it appeared the budget was of concern as well as a desire to have a 997. I was simply just pointing out the options in a financial basis.
(1) 7K (selling existing 996) - 20K (new 996) = 13k (cost) 20K (Value)
(2) 7K (selling existing 996) - 30K (new 997.1) = 23K (cost) 30K (Value)
(3) 7K (selling existing 996) - 60K (new 997.2) = 53K (cost) 60K (Value)
NOTE: this option has the greatest upside potential with much documented projection)

(4) Paying for rebuild from a 12-15K shop = 15K (cost) + 7K (value in existing 996) = 22K 22K (Value)
(5) Paying for rebuild from a 20-23K shop = 23K (cost + 7K (value in existing 996) = 30K 25K (Value)
NOTE: Option 4 & 5 currently have little to no upside potential (at least not at this point documented projection)

So if you were to give advice to your child or friend - it doesn't take much to see which options are the best! You MUST always keep "Value" in the decision process in a financial decision.

Side Note: Just like when people finance a house rather than paying cash, They get a loan for say 5% on a 30 year mortgage. then 15 years later they sell their house for roughly the same amount as purchased or with a marginal increase and think they did ok, WRONG the cost of the interest made them lose that profit. Do the math 5% a year for 15 years (which usually is front loaded on interest and not principal). Especially on a 850K house here in Florida where that is common for people our age and time as a business owner. ALWAYS PAY CASH! I would rather see a young adult live at home longer and save the money needed than get a mortgage.

Woodman71

Makes more sense now, thanks for the clarification!

dgjks6

But it is always more complicated than this. For the 996 or the 997.1 there is a change (I know, a small one, from 1-8%) that it could happen again. So for option #5 you have a car you know with the major issues of m96/97 failure fixed. So if everything else on your car is perfect and you have a bullet proof motor you have a better long term value than all of the options above - except maybe the 997.2

And an your side note - agreed, if you are buying a house as an investment with a 5% 30 year loan you are an idiot.

But if you are buying the house to raise a family and you may have a 30 year mortgage at 5% but you are living on your own raising a family. Maybe cheaper expense than rent in the long term - still money going out with little return - but you are not living in my basement.

Again - everything is always way more complicated than "cash value" today

jeleccion

To clarify a few things:
-Post #23 references fixing the intermix problem without total rebuild. Can you please elaborate more on that?
-the RND motor does have Nicklies already as well as several other new components. Supposedly, the FSI motors are supposed to be incredibly strong and dependable, but is it worth $18K?
-Based on all the research I have done, yes, I would be looking at a 997.2 to avoid the potential IMS issues--although the '05-'06 models look really enticing.
-I'm surprised at the number of newer and even low mileage 996s available, but I'm assuming that if I bought a used one, it's at least another $1500-$2k for a new IMS install and perhaps other misc stuff.
-Per post#30, I'm curious how difficult it was to put in the 997 motor. And how was iit possible to get a 2 yr. warranty? RND s FSI warranty is 1 yr or 12k.
-Can anyone confirm how much additional work would it take in order to install a 3.6?

jeleccion

BTW, Jake, no disrespect intended as I understand you guys make a great product.--I'm merely looking at economics. As far as I know, all the hoses will be changed as well as the cooling system to be refreshed.

Triple Black

To answer your question, my indie had the 997 3.6L Porsche crate engine sitting on the shelf in his shop. That is the engine now in my car. Apparently, the swap was without issue.

The 2 year warranty is with my indie. He is a dedicated Porsche mechanic and an engine builder so I guess if anything goes wrong with the engine he can do the repair himself, which would obviously lower his risk. I was actually surprised that he offered 2 years rather than just 1.

For your car, if you do go the engine replacement route, I am pretty sure you will need to replace it with another 3.4L. The good thing about that is that the 3.4 is significantly less to buy than the 3.6.

dgjks6

With oil in coolant and no other damage so far it may be worth pulling the motor and removing the heads. If just the head is cracked it can be repaired/replaced and all of the coolant lines flushes/replaced for a few thousand dollars.

But you need a diagnosis of just a cracked head. Need more information - why did the mechanic say total rebuild. Lots of others have repaired intermix by just fixing the head.

jeleccion

After researching just about everything, I have come to a couple of conclusions:

1. Without pulling the heads, we cannot ascertain if there is a cracked head. Even using a borscope was inconclusive. The other thing is, if it is a head and it gets fixed, going forward, there is still a possibility of the motor going south at some point. Most mechanics I've spoke to say that once over 100k, the M96 motors can begin to exhibit a variety of issues. So even having it fixed, I'd always be looking for the next issue to happen. So....
2. With the new RND motor, for $30k, I get some serious piece of mind, and I get my guards red cabrio back. However, I ran across another option. Rather than going with the new RND motor or buying a 997, I understand that a 996 TT is a much better option. It's a completely different block (derived from the GT 1) and there are plenty of them with well over 100k on the clock. In addition, the cost is in the same range ($30-40k with 50-75k mi) for the 996TT vs the RND motor. Am I missing something here or is the 996 TT really as good as it seems?

So, if you can call it a dilemma, I'm willing to let go of my '99 C2 and buy a 996 TT vs. putting a new RND motor. I'd be interested in your comments of buying the turbo (inherent problems, etc.) vs. paying the money to replace the motor on my C2.

Thanks

dgjks6

I think you got it about right.

Triple Black

Right, the turbo has the Mezger engine which doesn't have the same IMSB flaw as the M96. I considered going for a turbo when my engine went as well. However, after doing some research and talking about it with my indie mechanic I decided to make the investment in my 996 instead. The turbo has its own issues which can also be very expensive to fix. Plus, I had a great low mileage 996 that I knew very well, and now with an even better engine. My advice is spend the time to do your research on the turbo.

KNS

The biggest issue with the 996TT engine is the coolant pipes which you've probably read about by now. It isn't a show stopper like some of the M96 problems. Not cheap to resolve but not horribly expensive either (like an engine rebuild).

Flat6 Innovations

I just finished the below 996TT engine... It failed, which is why it ended up here.

When a TT breaks, you know it... I won't touch one for less than 35K, and most end up at 45K or more. Everything on the Turbo is more of a bitch to deal with, and all the parts are more expensive. Very little interchanges with the Carrera engines.

The coolant pipe job is around 5K to do, I just finished an extensive service for a 60K mile car a couple months ago, and a failed coolant sleeve is what initiated that service, which cost 15K total.

That said, the RND engine should not cost you 30K, your core engine should not have any collateral damages that would make it unacceptable as a core, and it looks like the engines are on special through www.rndeuroparts.com at the present. You'd not have anywhere near 30K in that engine


Flat 6 Innovations R36T Track Performer with Tial 3071s, external waste gates, AWE exhaust and all LN/ Flat 6 Innovations internal components.

Jason 996

Is there any extra complications when fitting a tt engine in a carrera?