First Start Pre lube or not pre lube??
02-23-2016, 03:28 AM
#46
Based on my estimate (from an opened engine case and dip stick position), the oil pump gears should be completely (albeit barely) submerged in the engine oil so probably it doesn't matter if you grease the oil pump gears or not?
In fact, I wonder if one should overfill the engine by a quart or so to ensure good oil pickup at first start and drain the excess afterwards.
In fact, I wonder if one should overfill the engine by a quart or so to ensure good oil pickup at first start and drain the excess afterwards.
02-23-2016, 09:11 AM
#47
Former Vendor
Based on my estimate (from an opened engine case and dip stick position), the oil pump gears should be completely (albeit barely) submerged in the engine oil so probably it doesn't matter if you grease the oil pump gears or not?
In fact, I wonder if one should overfill the engine by a quart or so to ensure good oil pickup at first start and drain the excess afterwards.
In fact, I wonder if one should overfill the engine by a quart or so to ensure good oil pickup at first start and drain the excess afterwards.
I never overfill these engines, doing so has no pros, and many cons.
You guys are over thinking this.
02-23-2016, 12:10 PM
#48
02-23-2016, 02:29 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
Jake, would this be recommended or beneficial to starting up after being in storage for 3-4 months?
02-23-2016, 07:02 PM
#51
Three Wheelin'
02-23-2016, 07:09 PM
#52
Former Vendor
I see it all the time. Being too reserved and conservative can make the really important things be overlooked..
02-24-2016, 05:34 AM
#53
Three Wheelin'
02-24-2016, 12:04 PM
#54
Former Vendor
True, but thats not something you'll have to worry about for the first decade of engine building.
Today when I get an engine ready to fire up for the first time, I walk away. I come back to it the next day, no matter how badly I want to hear it fire up I will do this.
When you build an engine the uneasy feeling in your stomach should always be there just before it fires, and the chill should go up your spine the first time you hear it bust off. If neither of these occur, you don't have "it".
I may do a first start for you guys and video it the way that we do it. You'll see just how easy it is when you do things as I have stated in this post. We've already fired up both the engines that we had slated to test fire this week, so it'll take two weeks before the next couple are completed and ready to fire up.
I did a first start on an engine I personally built for a 600K$ Porsche, I treated it the same way I have prescribed in this post, even though it wasn't an M96. It got oil pressure in less than 3 quick starts, and pegged the gauge as soon as it fired up.
Today when I get an engine ready to fire up for the first time, I walk away. I come back to it the next day, no matter how badly I want to hear it fire up I will do this.
When you build an engine the uneasy feeling in your stomach should always be there just before it fires, and the chill should go up your spine the first time you hear it bust off. If neither of these occur, you don't have "it".
I may do a first start for you guys and video it the way that we do it. You'll see just how easy it is when you do things as I have stated in this post. We've already fired up both the engines that we had slated to test fire this week, so it'll take two weeks before the next couple are completed and ready to fire up.
I did a first start on an engine I personally built for a 600K$ Porsche, I treated it the same way I have prescribed in this post, even though it wasn't an M96. It got oil pressure in less than 3 quick starts, and pegged the gauge as soon as it fired up.
02-24-2016, 12:10 PM
#55
Hi Jake,
Wondering if you could clarify what you meant here...or was it a brain-fart?
Cheers,
Wondering if you could clarify what you meant here...or was it a brain-fart?
Cheers,
Pulling plugs and spinning on the starter will never prime one of these engines properly when it has just been built. I have tried, and tried this with no luck. You'll deplete all of the assembly lube from the components, before the oil pressure builds on the starter. I see people treat this engine improperly all the time.
We start the car and shut it off immediately, like in a split second of hearing the first combustion cycle. I do this 5-6 times before I note the oil light on the dash no longer illuminating, then I fire it up and let it run.
I do NOT fill the filter with oil first. Doing this requires that air push the oil through the filter. Remember, the oil filter in the M96 is AFTER the oil pump, so it will not help with priming to fill it with oil. Its tough to have air push the oil through the filter. Instead, let the filter fill as the air is bled through the oil system.
We start the car and shut it off immediately, like in a split second of hearing the first combustion cycle. I do this 5-6 times before I note the oil light on the dash no longer illuminating, then I fire it up and let it run.
I do NOT fill the filter with oil first. Doing this requires that air push the oil through the filter. Remember, the oil filter in the M96 is AFTER the oil pump, so it will not help with priming to fill it with oil. Its tough to have air push the oil through the filter. Instead, let the filter fill as the air is bled through the oil system.
02-24-2016, 12:28 PM
#57
You made a bold point that the m96 has its oil filter after the pump and as such can't prime itself...so I'll ask again, what engine does NOT have its filter after the pump, and how come a lack of priming ability is unique to the m96?
02-24-2016, 12:37 PM
#58
I can totally see that. If you pre-fill oil in the oil filter, there's a lot of air trapped between the pump and the filter. As the oil pump starts pumping, the trapped air will need to be compressed first before the oil in the filter will get pushed up to the main bearings. That takes time. Kinda like getting air trapped in your brake system.
If not pre-filled, the oil simply gets pumped solidly from the pump to the filter with no resistance as the air is purged through the filter and the rest of the oil passages. Oil will get to the parts faster.
If not pre-filled, the oil simply gets pumped solidly from the pump to the filter with no resistance as the air is purged through the filter and the rest of the oil passages. Oil will get to the parts faster.
02-24-2016, 12:37 PM
#59
Former Vendor
Pretty much you'll only find filtration pre- pump on industrial engines. I was simply restating and making it clear that the oil system pumps the oil through the filter, and its not a scavenge system that pulls the oil through the filter.
This is why ore- filling an oil filter on a freshly built, never fired engine is a bad idea, as you have an air filled system between the pump and the filter, and in the case of the M96, this is a long, complex pathway to have filled with air. Doing this will dramatically increase the time it takes for the engine to achieve oil pressure, as the system can bleed the air quickly, and fill the filter quickly if the bleeding of the system occurs progressively. I do the same thing with aircooled engines that have large external oil systems, with coolers, and larger filters employed.
People try to outsmart the scenario by filling the filter with oil, they don't know what they don't know, and that increases the priming time of the entire oil system by at least 2-3 X more than if the filter was installed dry. Been there, done that, and compared it before.
Whats unique about the M96 is where the pump is placed in regard to the oil level in the engine, and the circuitry leading to the pump from the oil pick up tube. Thats why you'll pull the DME relay, and spark plugs, and crank on it till the battery dies before you'll get oil pressure on a freshly built M96 engine. The whole time the assembly lube has been wiped away from all the surfaces, and you put thousands of miles worth of wear on the internals before it even saw combustion the first time.
This is why ore- filling an oil filter on a freshly built, never fired engine is a bad idea, as you have an air filled system between the pump and the filter, and in the case of the M96, this is a long, complex pathway to have filled with air. Doing this will dramatically increase the time it takes for the engine to achieve oil pressure, as the system can bleed the air quickly, and fill the filter quickly if the bleeding of the system occurs progressively. I do the same thing with aircooled engines that have large external oil systems, with coolers, and larger filters employed.
People try to outsmart the scenario by filling the filter with oil, they don't know what they don't know, and that increases the priming time of the entire oil system by at least 2-3 X more than if the filter was installed dry. Been there, done that, and compared it before.
Whats unique about the M96 is where the pump is placed in regard to the oil level in the engine, and the circuitry leading to the pump from the oil pick up tube. Thats why you'll pull the DME relay, and spark plugs, and crank on it till the battery dies before you'll get oil pressure on a freshly built M96 engine. The whole time the assembly lube has been wiped away from all the surfaces, and you put thousands of miles worth of wear on the internals before it even saw combustion the first time.
02-24-2016, 01:25 PM
#60
Thank-you for your clarification.
My experience on from simple oil changes to extended sits to fresh build's is the opposite....also not sure how a small air-oil purge causes greater lag then a empty oil canister(large volume) needing filled...basic hydraulics.
With no plugs, there is virtually no cylinder/bearing load and the spin RPM is higher(vs with plugs), while 'light' starting the engine sees much higher cylinder loads and introduces fuel...the only thing seeing a consistent load is the valvetrain, and the pump pushes the same volume per revolutions(ie, not a variable-displacement pump), with some potential lose of efficiency at low rpm
Anyhow, everyone use what they are confident in and works for them...
Cheers,
My experience on from simple oil changes to extended sits to fresh build's is the opposite....also not sure how a small air-oil purge causes greater lag then a empty oil canister(large volume) needing filled...basic hydraulics.
With no plugs, there is virtually no cylinder/bearing load and the spin RPM is higher(vs with plugs), while 'light' starting the engine sees much higher cylinder loads and introduces fuel...the only thing seeing a consistent load is the valvetrain, and the pump pushes the same volume per revolutions(ie, not a variable-displacement pump), with some potential lose of efficiency at low rpm
Anyhow, everyone use what they are confident in and works for them...
Cheers,