Porsche Land in Chicago
07-07-2014, 11:16 PM
#46
Burning Brakes
Yeah, I love a good round of Flat Six bashing ...
Let's say you have a cart full of hot dogs. You go out to a street corner, charge a buck apiece, and sell them all.
The next day, you charge two bucks apiece, and sell them all.
Day 3, you charge three bucks apiece, you sell 1/2 the hot dogs.
Some people may not want to spend more than a buck for a hot dog, but the fact is, $2.00 hot dogs were not "too expensive." For whatever reason, enough people thought two bucks was the right price that they bought every one.
It's a simplistic example, ignoring direct competitors, variation in service offerings, local monopolies, etc ... but my point is that a competitive marketplace can do a pretty good job of setting the value of goods or services.
As for Flat Six Innovations, as long as they have a waiting list, then it's hard for me to view them as "too expensive." Some of us -- myself included-- may not be able to afford one of their engines. Some of us may not think they are worth it -- and I don't have an opinion on that -- but none of that really matters.
Clearly, enough people think FSI provides fair value that they are standing in line. To me, this means that a) their prices are fair, or b) every one of their customers is an idiot. If it's b), then Jake Raby is wasting his time on this small a scam.
Let's say you have a cart full of hot dogs. You go out to a street corner, charge a buck apiece, and sell them all.
The next day, you charge two bucks apiece, and sell them all.
Day 3, you charge three bucks apiece, you sell 1/2 the hot dogs.
Some people may not want to spend more than a buck for a hot dog, but the fact is, $2.00 hot dogs were not "too expensive." For whatever reason, enough people thought two bucks was the right price that they bought every one.
It's a simplistic example, ignoring direct competitors, variation in service offerings, local monopolies, etc ... but my point is that a competitive marketplace can do a pretty good job of setting the value of goods or services.
As for Flat Six Innovations, as long as they have a waiting list, then it's hard for me to view them as "too expensive." Some of us -- myself included-- may not be able to afford one of their engines. Some of us may not think they are worth it -- and I don't have an opinion on that -- but none of that really matters.
Clearly, enough people think FSI provides fair value that they are standing in line. To me, this means that a) their prices are fair, or b) every one of their customers is an idiot. If it's b), then Jake Raby is wasting his time on this small a scam.
07-08-2014, 09:12 AM
#47
Nordschleife Master
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Yeah, I love a good round of Flat Six bashing ...
Let's say you have a cart full of hot dogs. You go out to a street corner, charge a buck apiece, and sell them all.
The next day, you charge two bucks apiece, and sell them all.
Day 3, you charge three bucks apiece, you sell 1/2 the hot dogs.
Some people may not want to spend more than a buck for a hot dog, but the fact is, $2.00 hot dogs were not "too expensive." For whatever reason, enough people thought two bucks was the right price that they bought every one.
It's a simplistic example, ignoring direct competitors, variation in service offerings, local monopolies, etc ... but my point is that a competitive marketplace can do a pretty good job of setting the value of goods or services.
As for Flat Six Innovations, as long as they have a waiting list, then it's hard for me to view them as "too expensive." Some of us -- myself included-- may not be able to afford one of their engines. Some of us may not think they are worth it -- and I don't have an opinion on that -- but none of that really matters.
Clearly, enough people think FSI provides fair value that they are standing in line. To me, this means that a) their prices are fair, or b) every one of their customers is an idiot. If it's b), then Jake Raby is wasting his time on this small a scam.
Let's say you have a cart full of hot dogs. You go out to a street corner, charge a buck apiece, and sell them all.
The next day, you charge two bucks apiece, and sell them all.
Day 3, you charge three bucks apiece, you sell 1/2 the hot dogs.
Some people may not want to spend more than a buck for a hot dog, but the fact is, $2.00 hot dogs were not "too expensive." For whatever reason, enough people thought two bucks was the right price that they bought every one.
It's a simplistic example, ignoring direct competitors, variation in service offerings, local monopolies, etc ... but my point is that a competitive marketplace can do a pretty good job of setting the value of goods or services.
As for Flat Six Innovations, as long as they have a waiting list, then it's hard for me to view them as "too expensive." Some of us -- myself included-- may not be able to afford one of their engines. Some of us may not think they are worth it -- and I don't have an opinion on that -- but none of that really matters.
Clearly, enough people think FSI provides fair value that they are standing in line. To me, this means that a) their prices are fair, or b) every one of their customers is an idiot. If it's b), then Jake Raby is wasting his time on this small a scam.
Based on that information, there are acceptable alternatives out there. When somebody says just go to Jake, as if that is the only solution, I will always respond how I did. If you have money that you don't need, and time to wait, Jake is a solution. He appears to build a good motor. End of story. If you want to save 8k+ ( I remember a post where he stated his engines start at 23k somewhere, he can correct me if I am wrong) then go to where the OP went. OR any number of other places which do rebuilds. Jake is not the only solution.
Your simple approach does not take into account a number of things. Statistically there are people that do not care about cost. Quality is the only metric on which to judge. He is not getting 95% of the rebuilds out there. He is getting the small percentage that do not care about cost or delivery or buy into his belief that he is the only one who can rebuild a motor. It is a really good business model. It is working for him. I don't fault him for it. And his engines are just fine (I haven't seen anyone say his stuff doesn't work).
In the end none of this matters. Anyone who does enough research will be able to come to their own conclusions.
07-08-2014, 09:41 AM
#48
Former Vendor
Nice way to completely ignore every point and question from my post. We still don't know who you are, so we can't "research you".
When people say "Go see Jake", they do that because they know that we'll solve the problem the first time. Today we receive referrals from Porsche dealers in the same manner that we receive them here on these forums.
Of course I am not the only person who can build these engines, we had the first engine program and its been around the longest and maintained it's reputation. We don't just build engines and repair them, we have developed every major upgrade/ repair component available under this roof, and that includes many that are only used in our engines and not mentioned anywhere, or available. People wonder how our owners can spin their engines to 10,000+ RPM when mising a shift and the engine maintain camshaft timing when no one else can do that, and thats just one example.
Each year since 2008 I have instructed my Engine Rebuild and Engine Mechanical Classes to over 1,300 Porsche Technicians across North America. That includes having the owners and technicians from all of the "other shops" that offer these engines attending these classes to learn a little bit of what I share in 16 hours of instruction in the Engine Mechanical class, or a full 4 days in my hands on "Rebuild School".
I am so secure of what we do and how its done, that I have no problem instructing these classes and sharing the information. There's nothing more rewarding than training other people how to compete against you. Hell, they have to learn it somehow.
Soon they will be able to follow my step by step engine assembly manual, too. Thats should increase their effectiveness quite a bit, as well. Thats what its all about.
When people say "Go see Jake", they do that because they know that we'll solve the problem the first time. Today we receive referrals from Porsche dealers in the same manner that we receive them here on these forums.
Of course I am not the only person who can build these engines, we had the first engine program and its been around the longest and maintained it's reputation. We don't just build engines and repair them, we have developed every major upgrade/ repair component available under this roof, and that includes many that are only used in our engines and not mentioned anywhere, or available. People wonder how our owners can spin their engines to 10,000+ RPM when mising a shift and the engine maintain camshaft timing when no one else can do that, and thats just one example.
Each year since 2008 I have instructed my Engine Rebuild and Engine Mechanical Classes to over 1,300 Porsche Technicians across North America. That includes having the owners and technicians from all of the "other shops" that offer these engines attending these classes to learn a little bit of what I share in 16 hours of instruction in the Engine Mechanical class, or a full 4 days in my hands on "Rebuild School".
I am so secure of what we do and how its done, that I have no problem instructing these classes and sharing the information. There's nothing more rewarding than training other people how to compete against you. Hell, they have to learn it somehow.
Soon they will be able to follow my step by step engine assembly manual, too. Thats should increase their effectiveness quite a bit, as well. Thats what its all about.
07-08-2014, 10:48 AM
#49
Also the newbies thank you for advertising, I mean explaining who YOU are and all the wonderful things you have done laying out your portfolio for those that don't know by now. As for the rest of us, it's Groundhog Day again.
07-08-2014, 11:27 AM
#50
Former Vendor
Speaking of, any idea when you'll be done with your book?
Also the newbies thank you for advertising, I mean explaining who YOU are and all the wonderful things you have done laying out your portfolio for those that don't know by now. As for the rest of us, it's Groundhog Day again.
Also the newbies thank you for advertising, I mean explaining who YOU are and all the wonderful things you have done laying out your portfolio for those that don't know by now. As for the rest of us, it's Groundhog Day again.
Groundhog Day only comes around once per year, yet I find that I get dragged into these things by posters like 69Gaugeman at least once per week, and I never want to be a part of it.
BTW- The other poster who stated that he knows a member of my team and further stated that the engines we build are not special has also yet to respond. I can only believe that he knows no one here and simply made up that statement.
Had that never been mentioned, I would have never posted in this thread.
07-08-2014, 11:35 AM
#51
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No bone to pick with you just standing up for the guy that got me back on the road.
07-08-2014, 12:52 PM
#53
Nordschleife Master
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Alp.........that's not fair...it's so easy to comment like that. The guy gets called out, goes over the top to explain what his service is and you spin it as a commercial. He can't win if he keeps his mouth shut or not. Like I said before, I was in the camp for pissing on Flat6 long before you found RL but who are you going to call if your car takes a dirt nap? I called him with my tail between my legs and have not looked back. Or are you going to just toss it away?
No bone to pick with you just standing up for the guy that got me back on the road.
No bone to pick with you just standing up for the guy that got me back on the road.
This is something that is not offered universally. If it is more than 25 grand, wouldn't a twin turbo do the trick for you?
But fully unsubstantiated.
Not fully. I mentioned based on what you have posted. Do you do more than you post? Maybe. Is it worth the extra money? many think so.
Really? No you do not. Why? Because what we do specifically to these engines is not posted here. Why? Because of people like you, and their comments, pretty much. Also, I don't make blatent advertisement posts like other companies do on this forum. Show me once where I have posted an ad for an engine here. You won't find it.
You have posted quite a bit, one small tidbit at a time, what you do to these engines. Some of us retain that and collate it into a decent picture of what happens
And you've been abrasive in most every post that you've made. Your research is limited to my posts on Rennlist and you have ZERO direct experience with me or my company. You call that research?
I don't post with the intention of being abrasive. Generally it is not taken the way it was intended. I try to correct that if people are receptive to my point of view. If you are not, correction is not possible. Research comes in many different forms.
And now comes the truth and you're true motivation for your behavior.
For whom? It seems that you know all about me, but we don't know you. Care to share a little more than the username with us, so we can "research" who you are?
A short synapse of my career: From 1995 until 2008 I worked for a major gauge manufacturer who supplies inline and offline gauges to automotive manufacturers. This included the big three as well as volkswagen and bosch and ZFI. I started as a service engineer and quickly found the need for design engineering, which I filled.Many of these gauges measure to the micron level and so must be accurate to a sub micron level. From 2008 on I have been working as a gauge engineer in a major automotive parts manufacturer (most recently in the 6 speed transmission shafts manufacture for the Ford/GM collaboration transmission) I have been privy to countless meetings on engine and transmission design from all the manufacturers in North America we served. I know how engines are designed. I know what practices are being used.
How do you substantiate this? When have I given you a direct price on one of these engines? If I would have done that, you'd know that my prices include every single thing, right down to power steering fluid and oil for a completed car when we carry out a reconstruction. This price was higher than Porsche's engine program (by as much as 5K) several years ago, but at the end of the Porsche program for crate engines my engine was less and included complete installation and break- in service with chassis dyno time. Hell, I even fill the fuel tank of every car that sees a reconstruction, and ship it home clean.
If your engine is more than 25k, (and you at one point quoted 23k for a basic engine rebuild) then it is clear that the choice Zookie took was less money and much faster. That fact cannot be denied.
That doesn't even take into consideration that we give 200ccs of free displacement to every purchaser of a Stage I engine and give them a full year's worth of engine oil and filters for their new engine, and include oil analsis for that year as well. Hell, I even give them free used oil analysis kits to send the oil back to us with and free postage!
As I stated earlier in this thread, no other service, anywhere is this complete. This is the reason why we have no competitor in this market.
So, how can you say that my prices are high for whats offered? You can't. Why? Because you don't know whats included.
You haven't disclosed anything that comes close to 8k in extras. My point in my original post was not that you didn't provide a good motor and good service. My post was in response to someone saying taking it to you was the best and only option, which it isn't. That is all.
Most of the owners like that the deliveries take a while. We run 8-12 months all the time and that make it easier for folks to save money. I work from a 3 payment (1/3 payments) plan that breaks the process down to an initial deposit, a mid term payment and then one final payment when the work is done. Maybe twice per year people complain about a lead time, but they can call someone else who has an engine on the shelf and have it tomorrow- thats fine with us. People that understand what it takes to process one of these engines start to finish have a great respect for the procedures and man hours expended to do so. Remember- We aren't just slapping an engine together and wrapping it with saran wrap and shipping it away, we are doing everything required to restore function to that entire vehicle. Today that means a lot more than just the engine, as the cars are getting older and sub- systems are lending a hand.
And there's probably another reason for that, too. I won't post my thoughts, because I don't believe in posting speculation.
Hard to say, because we don't know you.
Not fully. I mentioned based on what you have posted. Do you do more than you post? Maybe. Is it worth the extra money? many think so.
Really? No you do not. Why? Because what we do specifically to these engines is not posted here. Why? Because of people like you, and their comments, pretty much. Also, I don't make blatent advertisement posts like other companies do on this forum. Show me once where I have posted an ad for an engine here. You won't find it.
You have posted quite a bit, one small tidbit at a time, what you do to these engines. Some of us retain that and collate it into a decent picture of what happens
And you've been abrasive in most every post that you've made. Your research is limited to my posts on Rennlist and you have ZERO direct experience with me or my company. You call that research?
I don't post with the intention of being abrasive. Generally it is not taken the way it was intended. I try to correct that if people are receptive to my point of view. If you are not, correction is not possible. Research comes in many different forms.
And now comes the truth and you're true motivation for your behavior.
For whom? It seems that you know all about me, but we don't know you. Care to share a little more than the username with us, so we can "research" who you are?
A short synapse of my career: From 1995 until 2008 I worked for a major gauge manufacturer who supplies inline and offline gauges to automotive manufacturers. This included the big three as well as volkswagen and bosch and ZFI. I started as a service engineer and quickly found the need for design engineering, which I filled.Many of these gauges measure to the micron level and so must be accurate to a sub micron level. From 2008 on I have been working as a gauge engineer in a major automotive parts manufacturer (most recently in the 6 speed transmission shafts manufacture for the Ford/GM collaboration transmission) I have been privy to countless meetings on engine and transmission design from all the manufacturers in North America we served. I know how engines are designed. I know what practices are being used.
How do you substantiate this? When have I given you a direct price on one of these engines? If I would have done that, you'd know that my prices include every single thing, right down to power steering fluid and oil for a completed car when we carry out a reconstruction. This price was higher than Porsche's engine program (by as much as 5K) several years ago, but at the end of the Porsche program for crate engines my engine was less and included complete installation and break- in service with chassis dyno time. Hell, I even fill the fuel tank of every car that sees a reconstruction, and ship it home clean.
If your engine is more than 25k, (and you at one point quoted 23k for a basic engine rebuild) then it is clear that the choice Zookie took was less money and much faster. That fact cannot be denied.
That doesn't even take into consideration that we give 200ccs of free displacement to every purchaser of a Stage I engine and give them a full year's worth of engine oil and filters for their new engine, and include oil analsis for that year as well. Hell, I even give them free used oil analysis kits to send the oil back to us with and free postage!
As I stated earlier in this thread, no other service, anywhere is this complete. This is the reason why we have no competitor in this market.
So, how can you say that my prices are high for whats offered? You can't. Why? Because you don't know whats included.
You haven't disclosed anything that comes close to 8k in extras. My point in my original post was not that you didn't provide a good motor and good service. My post was in response to someone saying taking it to you was the best and only option, which it isn't. That is all.
Most of the owners like that the deliveries take a while. We run 8-12 months all the time and that make it easier for folks to save money. I work from a 3 payment (1/3 payments) plan that breaks the process down to an initial deposit, a mid term payment and then one final payment when the work is done. Maybe twice per year people complain about a lead time, but they can call someone else who has an engine on the shelf and have it tomorrow- thats fine with us. People that understand what it takes to process one of these engines start to finish have a great respect for the procedures and man hours expended to do so. Remember- We aren't just slapping an engine together and wrapping it with saran wrap and shipping it away, we are doing everything required to restore function to that entire vehicle. Today that means a lot more than just the engine, as the cars are getting older and sub- systems are lending a hand.
And there's probably another reason for that, too. I won't post my thoughts, because I don't believe in posting speculation.
Hard to say, because we don't know you.
07-08-2014, 12:56 PM
#54
Nordschleife Master
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That included them giving me a Good Used Half Case as i didn't want to be Sleeved and Newer Used Pistons from the same Good Half Case.
Both the Half case and Pistons had 16k miles on them compare to my 127k miles.
Price also included the EPS IMS Upgrade and Rebuilding of Heads
$500 Extra for Heads being Ported and Polished
Engine was Ready for pick up in 3 Weeks from the day dropped off and I got to see Chicago twice but the Strippers aren't as good as Toronto
RE & RE was extra at my end.
But this shop does RE & RE for an Extra $1,000
The shop that did my RE & RE here in Toronto has sent 2 Engines (3.6L) to them for Rebuild after seeing mine
07-08-2014, 01:05 PM
#55
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07-08-2014, 01:07 PM
#57
Former Vendor
69gaugeman, we still don't know who you are.
Zookie and I talked several times, even at length. His vehicle was a primary mode of transportation and even though I tried to do him a favor the timeline I had was still too far out for him. That happens every now and then and thats Ok.
I am glad that he has his car back on the road, we started talking in early spring and I know he was without the car for a good while. It seemed to be a classic Canadian syndrome induced by operation in the cold environment.
That statement was the poster's opinion. Perhaps for him, he considers the things we do and how we do them to be the "best and only option" for him. Last time I checked, he was entitled to that opinion.
Zookie and I talked several times, even at length. His vehicle was a primary mode of transportation and even though I tried to do him a favor the timeline I had was still too far out for him. That happens every now and then and thats Ok.
I am glad that he has his car back on the road, we started talking in early spring and I know he was without the car for a good while. It seemed to be a classic Canadian syndrome induced by operation in the cold environment.
My post was in response to someone saying taking it to you was the best and only option, which it isn't.
07-08-2014, 01:13 PM
#59
Former Vendor
He sure is. As am I.
07-08-2014, 01:23 PM
#60
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