IMS Bearing Replacement DIY by Pelican Parts!
04-27-2013, 12:34 PM
#16
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Incorrect.
Several years ago while developing the IMS Solution we robbed oil from that location. The oil is not "just filtered" and is less than 12 average PSI less at all RPM points than the SPOFA location which has the same oil pressure as what the main bearings see.
Several years ago while developing the IMS Solution we robbed oil from that location. The oil is not "just filtered" and is less than 12 average PSI less at all RPM points than the SPOFA location which has the same oil pressure as what the main bearings see.
12 psi is plenty enough pressure for a plain bearing in this location. Likely the flaw in your design (which I pointed out in your other thread) is what caused your failure and not 12psi of oil pressure.
Oil taken from there is, in my opinion, the best location as it is at the end of the oil channel and will not rob critical flow from other areas. Of course it means you won't sell as much 'stuff' either....
04-27-2013, 12:34 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
Y'all beat me to it. Oiled ball bearings is a poor solution, and not robbing any pressure from within an engine that has had instances of oil pressure starvation and using full filtration is a must have requirement. The spin on adapter and magnetic drain plug were the first things I bought for my car in '08. JR: Do you just machine the right sized port in to the spin on adapter for the feeder line or is it a different adapter?
Please re-read: He clearly stated that the other location is 12psi less than the after filter location. The robbing of pressure from a supply line to other bearings within the engine would be poor engineering.
Please re-read: He clearly stated that the other location is 12psi less than the after filter location. The robbing of pressure from a supply line to other bearings within the engine would be poor engineering.
04-27-2013, 12:36 PM
#18
My guess would be that a ceramic bearing requires less oil than a plain bearing, which necessitates the LN filter adapter system for the plain bearing solution. Not really an apples to apples comparison as far as the oil requirements between the two. Rolls Royce and others use patented system that rely on oil vapor alone.
In fact, the original LN ceramic bearing didn't rely on any external pressurized oiling. So an oil supply source that was low pressure would be better than none at all. That said, the impact of using that oil on the engine is another issue, which Jake seems to have tried and ruled out. I don't know how much is "enough" in terms of scavenging oil from the unused port, that would be sufficient to lube a ceramic bearing, yet have a negligible effect on the oiling system. I am sure the proper balance could be achieved. It seems unlikely that Porsche would have designed these engines so precisely that there isn't any accommodation for a small amount of oil to be scavenged for lubricating a ceramic bearing.
And 69 Gaugemans comment above are a can of worms if true, since most of the IMSB replacement schemes rely on oil for bearing lubrication, not grease. Following is a brief discussion (not mine) about that issue though....
Lubrication
All bearings, whether steel or ceramic, require lubrication. Grease and oil are common lubricants for hybrid bearings, but ceramic bearings are less sensitive to fluctuations in lubrication conditions. For example, compared to steel bearings, ceramic ***** can operate under the same lubrication conditions at speeds up to 20% higher.
Except for those applications that operate at high speeds, grease is the recommended lubricant in most ceramic bearing applications. Grease is preferred because it is more easily retained at the bearing than oil and provides better protection against moisture and contaminants.
The most common grease used with ceramic bearings is lithium grease with a mineral oil base, suitable for precision bearings. For high-speed, high-temperature and prolonged service life applications, synthetic lubricants are preferred.
Regardless of the type of grease used, the quantity should never exceed 30% of the free space in the bearing. In high-speed applications, this quantity should be less than 30%.
As with any type of bearing, freshly greased ceramic bearings require a low-speed run-in period to ensure even distribution within the bearing. Excess grease is ejected during this period. Without a run-in period, premature bearing failure can result from sudden temperature rises.
A grease replenishment schedule should be calculated based upon the specific application. For high-speed applications, all grease should be removed and replaced with fresh grease on a fixed schedule.
Oil is typically used in applications where grease is either technically unsuitable or economically undesirable. Other situations where oil is preferred include those where grease relubrication cycles would be too short or when heat has to be removed from the bearing.
The combination of high operating speeds and low operating temperatures of spindle bearings require the use of circulating oil or oil spotting for lubrication. For other applications, oil bath, oil drop, oil jet and oil mist are suitable.
While oil must be changed at specific intervals, several lubrication methods offer slight exceptions to this rule. With oil-bath lubrication, an annual oil change is sufficient if bearing temperatures are generally lower than 122°F. At higher temperatures, oil should be changed more frequently. Where oil drop, oil mist or oil spot lubrication systems are in place, replacement generally is not necessary.
In fact, the original LN ceramic bearing didn't rely on any external pressurized oiling. So an oil supply source that was low pressure would be better than none at all. That said, the impact of using that oil on the engine is another issue, which Jake seems to have tried and ruled out. I don't know how much is "enough" in terms of scavenging oil from the unused port, that would be sufficient to lube a ceramic bearing, yet have a negligible effect on the oiling system. I am sure the proper balance could be achieved. It seems unlikely that Porsche would have designed these engines so precisely that there isn't any accommodation for a small amount of oil to be scavenged for lubricating a ceramic bearing.
And 69 Gaugemans comment above are a can of worms if true, since most of the IMSB replacement schemes rely on oil for bearing lubrication, not grease. Following is a brief discussion (not mine) about that issue though....
Lubrication
All bearings, whether steel or ceramic, require lubrication. Grease and oil are common lubricants for hybrid bearings, but ceramic bearings are less sensitive to fluctuations in lubrication conditions. For example, compared to steel bearings, ceramic ***** can operate under the same lubrication conditions at speeds up to 20% higher.
Except for those applications that operate at high speeds, grease is the recommended lubricant in most ceramic bearing applications. Grease is preferred because it is more easily retained at the bearing than oil and provides better protection against moisture and contaminants.
The most common grease used with ceramic bearings is lithium grease with a mineral oil base, suitable for precision bearings. For high-speed, high-temperature and prolonged service life applications, synthetic lubricants are preferred.
Regardless of the type of grease used, the quantity should never exceed 30% of the free space in the bearing. In high-speed applications, this quantity should be less than 30%.
As with any type of bearing, freshly greased ceramic bearings require a low-speed run-in period to ensure even distribution within the bearing. Excess grease is ejected during this period. Without a run-in period, premature bearing failure can result from sudden temperature rises.
A grease replenishment schedule should be calculated based upon the specific application. For high-speed applications, all grease should be removed and replaced with fresh grease on a fixed schedule.
Oil is typically used in applications where grease is either technically unsuitable or economically undesirable. Other situations where oil is preferred include those where grease relubrication cycles would be too short or when heat has to be removed from the bearing.
The combination of high operating speeds and low operating temperatures of spindle bearings require the use of circulating oil or oil spotting for lubrication. For other applications, oil bath, oil drop, oil jet and oil mist are suitable.
While oil must be changed at specific intervals, several lubrication methods offer slight exceptions to this rule. With oil-bath lubrication, an annual oil change is sufficient if bearing temperatures are generally lower than 122°F. At higher temperatures, oil should be changed more frequently. Where oil drop, oil mist or oil spot lubrication systems are in place, replacement generally is not necessary.
04-27-2013, 12:40 PM
#19
Former Vendor
I invented the IMS Solution for my engines. As long as we have it for our own use, I could care less how many units are sold.
Let's stay on topic guys. I don't want to detract from Wayne's thread, and nothing else really needs to be said.
Let's stay on topic guys. I don't want to detract from Wayne's thread, and nothing else really needs to be said.
04-27-2013, 12:44 PM
#20
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My guess would be that a ceramic bearing requires less oil than a plain bearing, which necessitates the LN filter adapter system for the plain bearing solution. Not really an apples to apples comparison as far as the oil requirements between the two. Rolls Royce and others use patented system that rely on oil vapor alone.
In fact, the original LN ceramic bearing didn't rely on any external pressurized oiling. So an oil supply source that was low pressure would be better than none at all. That said, the impact of using that oil on the engine is another issue, which Jake seems to have tried and ruled out. I don't know how much is "enough" in terms of scavenging oil from the unused port, that would be sufficient to lube a ceramic bearing, yet have a negligible effect on the oiling system. I am sure the proper balance could be achieved. It seems unlikely that Porsche would have designed these engines so precisely that there isn't any accommodation for a small amount of oil to be scavenged for lubricating a ceramic bearing.
And 69 Gaugemans comment above are a can of worms if true, since most of the IMSB replacement schemes rely on oil for bearing lubrication, not grease. Following is a brief discussion (not mine) about that issue though....
Lubrication
All bearings, whether steel or ceramic, require lubrication. Grease and oil are common lubricants for hybrid bearings, but ceramic bearings are less sensitive to fluctuations in lubrication conditions. For example, compared to steel bearings, ceramic ***** can operate under the same lubrication conditions at speeds up to 20% higher.
Except for those applications that operate at high speeds, grease is the recommended lubricant in most ceramic bearing applications. Grease is preferred because it is more easily retained at the bearing than oil and provides better protection against moisture and contaminants.
The most common grease used with ceramic bearings is lithium grease with a mineral oil base, suitable for precision bearings. For high-speed, high-temperature and prolonged service life applications, synthetic lubricants are preferred.
Regardless of the type of grease used, the quantity should never exceed 30% of the free space in the bearing. In high-speed applications, this quantity should be less than 30%.
As with any type of bearing, freshly greased ceramic bearings require a low-speed run-in period to ensure even distribution within the bearing. Excess grease is ejected during this period. Without a run-in period, premature bearing failure can result from sudden temperature rises.
A grease replenishment schedule should be calculated based upon the specific application. For high-speed applications, all grease should be removed and replaced with fresh grease on a fixed schedule.
Oil is typically used in applications where grease is either technically unsuitable or economically undesirable. Other situations where oil is preferred include those where grease relubrication cycles would be too short or when heat has to be removed from the bearing.
The combination of high operating speeds and low operating temperatures of spindle bearings require the use of circulating oil or oil spotting for lubrication. For other applications, oil bath, oil drop, oil jet and oil mist are suitable.
While oil must be changed at specific intervals, several lubrication methods offer slight exceptions to this rule. With oil-bath lubrication, an annual oil change is sufficient if bearing temperatures are generally lower than 122°F. At higher temperatures, oil should be changed more frequently. Where oil drop, oil mist or oil spot lubrication systems are in place, replacement generally is not necessary.
In fact, the original LN ceramic bearing didn't rely on any external pressurized oiling. So an oil supply source that was low pressure would be better than none at all. That said, the impact of using that oil on the engine is another issue, which Jake seems to have tried and ruled out. I don't know how much is "enough" in terms of scavenging oil from the unused port, that would be sufficient to lube a ceramic bearing, yet have a negligible effect on the oiling system. I am sure the proper balance could be achieved. It seems unlikely that Porsche would have designed these engines so precisely that there isn't any accommodation for a small amount of oil to be scavenged for lubricating a ceramic bearing.
And 69 Gaugemans comment above are a can of worms if true, since most of the IMSB replacement schemes rely on oil for bearing lubrication, not grease. Following is a brief discussion (not mine) about that issue though....
Lubrication
All bearings, whether steel or ceramic, require lubrication. Grease and oil are common lubricants for hybrid bearings, but ceramic bearings are less sensitive to fluctuations in lubrication conditions. For example, compared to steel bearings, ceramic ***** can operate under the same lubrication conditions at speeds up to 20% higher.
Except for those applications that operate at high speeds, grease is the recommended lubricant in most ceramic bearing applications. Grease is preferred because it is more easily retained at the bearing than oil and provides better protection against moisture and contaminants.
The most common grease used with ceramic bearings is lithium grease with a mineral oil base, suitable for precision bearings. For high-speed, high-temperature and prolonged service life applications, synthetic lubricants are preferred.
Regardless of the type of grease used, the quantity should never exceed 30% of the free space in the bearing. In high-speed applications, this quantity should be less than 30%.
As with any type of bearing, freshly greased ceramic bearings require a low-speed run-in period to ensure even distribution within the bearing. Excess grease is ejected during this period. Without a run-in period, premature bearing failure can result from sudden temperature rises.
A grease replenishment schedule should be calculated based upon the specific application. For high-speed applications, all grease should be removed and replaced with fresh grease on a fixed schedule.
Oil is typically used in applications where grease is either technically unsuitable or economically undesirable. Other situations where oil is preferred include those where grease relubrication cycles would be too short or when heat has to be removed from the bearing.
The combination of high operating speeds and low operating temperatures of spindle bearings require the use of circulating oil or oil spotting for lubrication. For other applications, oil bath, oil drop, oil jet and oil mist are suitable.
While oil must be changed at specific intervals, several lubrication methods offer slight exceptions to this rule. With oil-bath lubrication, an annual oil change is sufficient if bearing temperatures are generally lower than 122°F. At higher temperatures, oil should be changed more frequently. Where oil drop, oil mist or oil spot lubrication systems are in place, replacement generally is not necessary.
While engine oil MAY be fine, it is not an oil used by bearing manufacturers. And the adage that ANY oil is OK is simply not true. I would use the sealed grease from the factory. Change out the bearing at clutch time for the 100 bucks or so and be done with it.
04-27-2013, 01:42 PM
#21
While true that oil mist systems in ceramic bearings are used (most notably in 15,000 rpm and greater machine tool spindles) it's application is critical. As is also true that grease causes an increase in bearing temperature as speed rises to maximum. But the TYPE of lube in either system is the critical issue.
While engine oil MAY be fine, it is not an oil used by bearing manufacturers. And the adage that ANY oil is OK is simply not true. I would use the sealed grease from the factory. Change out the bearing at clutch time for the 100 bucks or so and be done with it.
While engine oil MAY be fine, it is not an oil used by bearing manufacturers. And the adage that ANY oil is OK is simply not true. I would use the sealed grease from the factory. Change out the bearing at clutch time for the 100 bucks or so and be done with it.
04-27-2013, 02:10 PM
#23
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I still stand by the best solution being a plain bearing as used in the Turbo version of this engine. It is the best solution.
If Imre's bearing lasts through a clutch life cycle, that would be my choice.
If Imre's bearing lasts through a clutch life cycle, that would be my choice.
04-27-2013, 06:44 PM
#26
Burning Brakes
No, it hasn't, it is still a more reliable solution that the original. I think, though, that a better sealed CH bearing in the Pelican kit would be a popular and improved option in design for the DIYer that wants to go this route. Heck I may go that route when I do it. I find it immensely difficult to believe that a sealed CH bearing that can last in a light duty like this in 250F oil can't be found.
04-27-2013, 08:20 PM
#28
Back to on topic. The Pelican kit uses only one type of bearing for both dual row and single row engines, a single row bearing.
I doubt any dual row owners would choose to substitute a single row bearing where a dual row bearing was originally fitted. At least I wouldn't .
Additionally, the Pelican bearing is a steel bearing the same as the OEM bearing, although it is stated the grease seal is improved over OEM.
I doubt any dual row owners would choose to substitute a single row bearing where a dual row bearing was originally fitted. At least I wouldn't .
Additionally, the Pelican bearing is a steel bearing the same as the OEM bearing, although it is stated the grease seal is improved over OEM.
04-28-2013, 01:05 PM
#29
Burning Brakes
But it is a standard sized bearing, so I could buy the kit an just substitute the better CH bearing, which is basically what KK is doing. Is there a post with your bearing model Imo000?
04-28-2013, 05:59 PM
#30
Captain Obvious
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