alpine003

Metal particles = automatic IMS failure?

This is the problem I have as dealers don't even take the time to properly diagnose and/or attempt to repair and just chalk it up to a blown motor or IMS issue and recommend a new motor. Then it gets posted to the Internet with these assumptions and then that's where we're at today.

I'm glad Porsche decided to step up, but to them it's chump change at there cost and pales in comparison to the potential repercussions they might face in PR nightmare if this kind of thing went viral on the web.
My $.02

Either way I'm glad things worked out for OP.

KrazyK

Alp, cmon bro, don't rain on his parade and good outcome with Porsche. Your so negative (or is that positive?) about IMSB failures.


Sorry to read about the failure but relieved to see that Porsche is going to cover most of it. Great catch on your part. Good for you!

P.S. I would love to see the bearing from this engine but I know we never will.

silotwo

Both cars are manual.

silotwo

I agree KK - I don't think we will ever see the bearing but I will do my best to be there when they do the swap. The tech assigned to the car is typically interested enough to check things out. But.... originally I was told that they couldn't request anything from PCNA until they were positive that it was the IMSB which would require removing the trans at minimum. The trans wasn't scheduled to be dropped until today yet on Monday they already had approval and the car is not disassembled. Bummer is that they have yet another new service writer and he is less than happy with me being in the shop so I am not sure if I will be able to be in the shop for the swap - but I will have my little camera with me just in case. They expect to do the swap mid next week.

Ideally I'd prefer to not have this happen and to not have a car with a replacement engine. But given the alternatives and the fact that I buy these things to drive them, I am grateful that the car will be road worthy, hopefully for many miles and years to come.

alpine003

Chances of you being actually in the shop area where the work is being performed is slim unless the service manager for whatever reason doesn't understand the liabilities and/or the insurance. Most insurance for shops have various restrictions that can forbid customers for being on the premises where the work is being performed. Most will only let you in if they have to show you something or point something out but highly unlikely that someone is going to be able to actually watch a certain procedure being performed. That has been my experience but every shop is different.

silotwo

In a sense I agree with you. However, regardless of the root cause I have a bum motor in a car with 37k miles. Being selfish here...I highly doubt, nor would I truly expect, a manufacturer to step up to cover cost of repairs on a 9 year old car, especially after a private purchase. PCNA seems fairly quick to step up in the case of the IMSB, not so sure they would step up if the engine was failing for any other reason.

My initial thought was a chain tensioner on the way out, the sound at first was reminscent of a chain slap when a chain tensioner failed on my old 911, except the sound was so sporadic that it didn't make any sense, no rythm to the sound at all. The car would sound perfect at idle for a few minutes at a time and then there would be three or four intermittent noises, like someone was inside the engine tapping on the block with a hammer and then go quiet again. It didn't seem to make any difference whether it was at idle or under load.

I am tempted to agree with the tech's diagnose because before we shut her down permanently the sound did increase in frequency and the often mentioned "marbles in a coffe can" noise appeared and became increasingly steady.

Either way, we will most likely never know, but I will do my best to urge the tech to at least pull the IMS retainer for a quick look before he drops the motor for the swap. I highly doubt he will go along with my request to pull the bearing, there will be some B.S. reason why Porsche won't allow that.

silotwo

In the past I had free reign in the shop - purchased the C2 as a CPO from this dealer in 2007 and gave them all of my service work. I was in the shop when they replaced the IMSB on my C2 and was able to observe the process. You are correct though, typically insurance regulations are the issue, and rightly so.

alpine003

I agree with this and my comments were more or less directed at the historical nature of how Porsche dealers have dealt with this in the past. I'm not even entirely sure if Porsche techs(master or not) have the ability and/or resources to even repair these motors in house. Maybe some but definitely not the majority based on my talks with a local Porsche master tech.

Yes the bottom line regardless of what really went wrong is that you have a bum motor and you should consider yourself lucky that PCNA stepped up in a timely fashion with minimal headaches in your situation. I'm glad that you were able to get this kind of resolution with them. Please keep us all updated.

Byprodriver

You & Porsche do not want any tampering with the evidence!

Porsche may actually still want to learn from their mistakes, although I think that ship has sailed & sunk. Either way disassembly is the best way to determine suitability for rebuilding.

silotwo

Progress update - well, no call from the dealer to let me know when the motor arrived but I was in the area today so decided to stop by to remind them that I wanted to be there when the trans was dropped.

Car was in the shop, on the lift, and when I got to the service desk the service writer informed me that the engine arrived and I should have the car mid next week.

I had some questions and the response to each question was with the deer in the headlights look and a generic answer of "the engine came with everthing we needed" and "if we thought you needed anything else we'd let you know".

Finally got the guy to let me talk to the tech as it was the end of their day and I wouldn't be holding them up from working.

Turns out the new engine is already installed and they are just waiting for a gasket for the A/C hose. I was able to confirm that the A/C compressor is the only component being used from my old engine, everything else including the AOS, coil packs, and even spark plugs are new. They did have to swap one of the hoses to the airbox for my PSE, but that was it.

So, the old engine was sitting there and I could see that the IMS and RMS seals were 100% dry, not even a hint of seepage. The tech told me that the clutch pack and flyweel looked surprisingly as new. Good to know as the previous owner and his Porsche dealership did tell me that the IMS, RMS, and clutch had been replaced 500 miles before I purchased the car, the car had a minor RMS leak and the previous owner decided to do the IMS and clutch as "while they were in there" items. Feeling good that what I was told is true.

The tech also told me that the oil was "loaded with a ton of metal" so I gently nudged him to pull the IMS retainer since there was no external indication that the IMSB was compromised. As expected, the tech told me he could not touch the engine unless Porshe issued instructions to further diagnose the problem, which they had not.

I then noticed that the head on the right side of the engine - direction oriented as sitting in the drivers seat - appeared to be somewhat wet with what looked like seepage or as in the old days we would call crankcase blow-by. This is also the side of the engine where I thought the noises initially originated. The tech didn't respond and I decided to not push the issue.

My unsubstantiated opinion is that we don't know and will never know for certain that the IMSB failed. All we know for certain is that the engine was on it's way out and the car will have a new engine courtesy of Porsche with labor on me.

Disappointed that the engine is in and I didn't get a chance to see the clutch and flywheel on my own, but I do trust what the tech told me and they are ahead of schedule by about one week. Tech says car could be done tomorrow, service writer still says mid next week. But then again he didn't know if a new AOS was included or what I meant by checking the spring action of the flywheel. And when I asked about motor mounts he said "I think so because the engine came with a new cross member" ( thus the permission to talk directly to the tech ).

The tech repeated the theory that cars not driven regularly and to full operating temperature create moisture problems and once corrosion begins it simply can not be stopped. So, even though I drove it over 1k miles per month with oil changes under 5k mile intervals, I most likely inherited an existing issue.I do know that the previous owner drove it less than 1100 miles in the year before I bought it. The tech also said there are very few reported engine failures in Germany as the cars are purchased more for daily drivers than they are in the U.S. He also stated that tracked cars have an even lower incidence of failure.

This tech is new to me, never worked with him before, but I felt pretty comfortable after speaking with him. He is a Porsche owner, particpates in DE events, and is a certified tech inspector. He encouraged me to try a DE with my C2, complete with the warning that if the DE bug bites me it will be a costly addiction.

I have the time now that I am not working, but not working comes with some financial cautions as well. Man, I hope I can find a balance between work and having time to live in the future. My old job paid very well but all the money really did was allow me to move at a frantic pace with no time for much other than "the job". I used to joke that if it wasn't for the ability to drive 60 miles round trip each day in a Porsche there would be no joy in my day at all. I looked forward to going to the office because I had a legimate reason to drive.

I'll update again after I have her back on the road.

And if anyone has any knowledge of engine break in requirements, if there are any, or any other info on a factory replacement engine, I'd appreciate the info.

Happy motoring to all.

318touring

I've heard of this theory before from a UK forum. In this instance the owner's wife used the car regularly but over a short distance, not allowing moisture to be completely burnt off.

Viper6

Are you saying this was not the original IMSB that failed? Was this "replacement" an LNE bearing or stock?

Just trying to understand if OEM or afttermarket bearing failed... also how many miles on this "new" IMSB did you put on? thx

WalterRohrl

To piggyback on Viper's question: If you take a 996 with its original engine (no matter the year) to a Porsche dealer and ask them to replace the IMSB on your dime what do they put in? Their reman engines for the last several years have shipped with the newer larger bearing that you have to split the case to change indicating that the original part as fitted is not considered up to the job in their opinion, so what do they do and warranty for an older engine? I'm just curious as a technicality, nothing else.

silotwo

This car had the original IMS bearing, it was the seal that had been replaced. The orignal design of both the RMS (rear main seal) and IMS seal (intermediate shaft seal) were prone to oil leaks. Several redesigns later and Porsche got the seals right, thus most cars did have these seals replaced at some point in their history.

My dealer uses the LNE retrofit bearing when they do replace the bearing. From what I am told, the replacement of the bearing is not an authorized Porsche service procedure and the only warranty on the bearing is from LNE and only covers the part.

There is no official Porsche warranty on an older engine unless the car is still under certified pre-owned warranty, which would be rare given the age of these cars. My engine is being provided by Porsche under their good will process - which is never a guarantee but seems to be happening more frequently these days. The replacement engine does include a 2 year, 24k mile warranty and yes, it does have the larger bearing that requires the case to be split should it ever need replacement.

I would assume that given the proposed class action settlement offered by Porsche and their good will replacement of some engines that they do indeed acknowledge the problem.

After all is said and done, I own two 2004 996's and quite frankly if I had the cash I wouldn't hesitate to purchase another one. The only difference would be that I would assure the bearing is replaced and then simply enjoy the hell out of the driving experience.

porrsha

So does your VIN correspond to the list posted in the 996 forum as one of the cars being at risk?