Different Approach to DIY IMSB Retro / Parts and Pics
05-29-2013, 08:10 PM
#76
Three Wheelin'
I'm starting to wonder if this thread was a scam, or the iSB blew up the day after he installed it. So many here have asked for the info, and its not been supplied.
05-29-2013, 09:53 PM
#77
I'm guessing KK has not yet driven the car! He's still busy wiping down the tools with a fresh diaper. :-)
05-29-2013, 10:37 PM
#79
Three Wheelin'
I know, I know. Im sorry but the parts list got absurdly long as I replaced everything. Its coming soon with tool list as well. Cars sounds and runs great. I am confident the IMSB will not explode knowing it is a CH bearing and being well lubed.
But, I will be dropping engine soon for AOS/OVS replacement, and other misc. things.
But, I will be dropping engine soon for AOS/OVS replacement, and other misc. things.
05-30-2013, 04:48 AM
#80
Pro
06-15-2013, 11:14 AM
#83
Nordschleife Master
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500 - thanks for the link http://forums.pelicanparts.com/boxst...sign-idea.html This was an interesting read, I had not seen that thread before. I definitely enjoyed the video of a valvetrain at 14,000 rpm.
There is a lot of speculation in that thread, I believe a lot of it would be addressed in the discovery documents for the lawsuit detailed in this thread https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...r-12-a-18.html Has anyone asked for these yet? It needs to be someone with a 2003 or 2004 and less than 130,000 miles.
KK - I agree with you that it is possible to find a quality bearing for less than $600. A fix like yours is something I have contemplated before. With respect to using a seal or not, did you consider using a shielded bearing?
There is a lot of speculation in that thread, I believe a lot of it would be addressed in the discovery documents for the lawsuit detailed in this thread https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...r-12-a-18.html Has anyone asked for these yet? It needs to be someone with a 2003 or 2004 and less than 130,000 miles.
KK - I agree with you that it is possible to find a quality bearing for less than $600. A fix like yours is something I have contemplated before. With respect to using a seal or not, did you consider using a shielded bearing?
On the surface, your reasoning is sound but gotta wonder why Porsche engineers didn't have the open design, even in their later models as it really wouldn't have added any additional cost to their bottom line?
But then again, you have the mindset that Porsche has used the wrong oil as well so maybe seeking an answer would be futile at best.
I'm not saying the open bearing is either better or worse but just trying to figure out why Porsche didn't do it with their vast knowledge and engineering resources.
But then again, you have the mindset that Porsche has used the wrong oil as well so maybe seeking an answer would be futile at best.
I'm not saying the open bearing is either better or worse but just trying to figure out why Porsche didn't do it with their vast knowledge and engineering resources.
Also you can be sure that Porsche tested these engines to destruction and found no appreciable failures (to the point of warranty expiration). This is how it is done. What they may not have done is tested in engines where oil was never changed, wrong oil used, and a million other variables that no one can possibly think of. They then use statistics to determine exposure to risk and move forward with that.
Hmmm, the same experts that said you couldn't change the IMS bearing w/o disassembling the engine? The same experts that used a $12 (probably cheaper back then) sealed bearing to support a critical part of the engine?
Alp, sometimes "experts" miss something and sometimes they just don't care. Kind of like how some NASA employees warned the experts about sealing ring integrity for a at near freezing temperature Challenger space shuttle launch?
I would love to read the internal memos and emails between the Porsche employees concerning the IMS problems.
Alp, sometimes "experts" miss something and sometimes they just don't care. Kind of like how some NASA employees warned the experts about sealing ring integrity for a at near freezing temperature Challenger space shuttle launch?
I would love to read the internal memos and emails between the Porsche employees concerning the IMS problems.
seriously, the only way a dual mass flywheel cannot be resurfaced is if the rubber element has failed.
If there is no shuddering when you took apart the clutch (IE replace at the correct time) then there is no reason to replace the flywheel. Or even resurface it for that matter.
I was serious too, not baiting or provoking a reaction. I'm sorry that people are sick of IMSB discussions. I belong to the camp of "If you don't like them, then don't read them." I can easily say I'm sick of the "Look at my car with 19" wheels" threads too..I just don't read them. Constructive discussion is what is required, not insults and degrading name calling.
For one, I agree that the seal removed and bearing open on both sides would promote more flow through of oil through the bearing. How much and whether this has any value is debateable. Again, I'm not making waves or preaching. I only want to explain that only in theory, is theory proof of what occurs in reality. In reality, we know that the greased sealed steel bearing has lasted in (pick a number) close to 95% of the M96 engines, and 5% resulted in failure. If grease wash out was such a sure thing, then the failure would be much higher. In theory many are assuming that it is the grease wash out that has caused the failure. In reality, no one knows for sure. It is not worth anyones time to analyze the bearings (except maybe to JR) as it is moot to most whether it was the seals that failed, which then caused the wash out, or a slow wash out of the grease that caused the seals to fail, then the bearing. However, if the seals are the problem, and a better longer lasting seal, in a better smoother bearing could be used, then the issue is closer to being solved, inexpensively. The amount of grease in a sealed bearing is actually pretty small, typically less than 30% of the free space. Most, if not all, (I know of none that aren't, but that is not anything remotely definitive) ball bearing and race bearings are designed to be used with grease, not oil, as even in an oil bath, the ***** and races wear at an accelerated rate. So all those IMSBs that have lasted 75k miles, must still have grease of some kind in them. Ergo, better grease retention, means longer life. You can never assume that an oiled ball bearing will have no wear, or last as long as a greased bearing. They don't. But for sure, an oiled bearing will outlast an unoiled one. That is what I meant by the lessor of evils.
Without looking at the detailed assembley of the IMS, bearing, flange, etc design, dynamically, I, as an engineer, know not to assume that oil in the tube is definitively caused by travel through the bearing seals. Could be around the bearing seals, or some other path. Again, we have people assuming that in theory more oil flow is all that is required. Where is the reality check, or proof of the pudding? If you and Imo000 are willing to use your engines to provide such data, that is great. Most of us clearly don't say things like "Im looking forward to the next tear-down to check my new CH bearing." !! I applaud the labor and time you are putting in to all this. It will not be wasted, I am sure. My first choice, as I stated, would be to use a far better sealed, greased, CH bearing, if a ball bearing design was to be used, and like you, treat it as a wear item. The added life from the increased durability of the CH bearing would greatly stack the odds in my favor of no failure that way. Since the seals in a true sealed bearing hold grease in, and oil out, since they are not under pressure, I would expect a long useful life. IF I didn't want to pony up the cash for The Solution, which is a far better, well, solution.
The question of debris in an open bearing has been mentioned. Any debris is catastrophic for any ball bearing design. Less so, for a full ceramic bearing because the races and bearings are harder, smoother and truer, so debris can not get to where it can do as much damage, compared to the softer, wider tolerance steel bearings and races. The CH naturally does fall in between the two. Again, a sealed bearing would have far less chance of any debris entry, and one side open CH, less chance than a both sides open bearing. So there are your hazards. If you are just aware of these items, then you can be prepared for their possible outcomes.
For one, I agree that the seal removed and bearing open on both sides would promote more flow through of oil through the bearing. How much and whether this has any value is debateable. Again, I'm not making waves or preaching. I only want to explain that only in theory, is theory proof of what occurs in reality. In reality, we know that the greased sealed steel bearing has lasted in (pick a number) close to 95% of the M96 engines, and 5% resulted in failure. If grease wash out was such a sure thing, then the failure would be much higher. In theory many are assuming that it is the grease wash out that has caused the failure. In reality, no one knows for sure. It is not worth anyones time to analyze the bearings (except maybe to JR) as it is moot to most whether it was the seals that failed, which then caused the wash out, or a slow wash out of the grease that caused the seals to fail, then the bearing. However, if the seals are the problem, and a better longer lasting seal, in a better smoother bearing could be used, then the issue is closer to being solved, inexpensively. The amount of grease in a sealed bearing is actually pretty small, typically less than 30% of the free space. Most, if not all, (I know of none that aren't, but that is not anything remotely definitive) ball bearing and race bearings are designed to be used with grease, not oil, as even in an oil bath, the ***** and races wear at an accelerated rate. So all those IMSBs that have lasted 75k miles, must still have grease of some kind in them. Ergo, better grease retention, means longer life. You can never assume that an oiled ball bearing will have no wear, or last as long as a greased bearing. They don't. But for sure, an oiled bearing will outlast an unoiled one. That is what I meant by the lessor of evils.
Without looking at the detailed assembley of the IMS, bearing, flange, etc design, dynamically, I, as an engineer, know not to assume that oil in the tube is definitively caused by travel through the bearing seals. Could be around the bearing seals, or some other path. Again, we have people assuming that in theory more oil flow is all that is required. Where is the reality check, or proof of the pudding? If you and Imo000 are willing to use your engines to provide such data, that is great. Most of us clearly don't say things like "Im looking forward to the next tear-down to check my new CH bearing." !! I applaud the labor and time you are putting in to all this. It will not be wasted, I am sure. My first choice, as I stated, would be to use a far better sealed, greased, CH bearing, if a ball bearing design was to be used, and like you, treat it as a wear item. The added life from the increased durability of the CH bearing would greatly stack the odds in my favor of no failure that way. Since the seals in a true sealed bearing hold grease in, and oil out, since they are not under pressure, I would expect a long useful life. IF I didn't want to pony up the cash for The Solution, which is a far better, well, solution.
The question of debris in an open bearing has been mentioned. Any debris is catastrophic for any ball bearing design. Less so, for a full ceramic bearing because the races and bearings are harder, smoother and truer, so debris can not get to where it can do as much damage, compared to the softer, wider tolerance steel bearings and races. The CH naturally does fall in between the two. Again, a sealed bearing would have far less chance of any debris entry, and one side open CH, less chance than a both sides open bearing. So there are your hazards. If you are just aware of these items, then you can be prepared for their possible outcomes.
in the life of the bearing. NO lubrication or very old oil might, though.
Tolerance and clearance in a bearing has nothing to do with materials they are manufactured from. The tolerance group is a size definition, not a material definition. The only thing about the CF bearing is the ***** are tougher and last longer. (they are the significant wear item in the assembly) so any contamination would have less of an effect.
Just an update. Trans ready to go back in. New flywheel, clutch, pressure plate installed. Remember to look for "gearbox side" printed on clutch disc. Also clean flywheel and PP surface with a good solvent and lint free cloth.
Everything back together and running. On intial startup there was the usual valvetrain noise from having oil drained for several weeks but after 5 minutes engine is nice and quite and runs perfect.
Any idea how many miles I should take it easy on the new ceramic hybrid bearing?
Note about LNE, Casper Labs, and Pelican IMS bearings. Everyone concerned about "debri" in my sealess bearing does realize that both the LNE and Casper are at risk for this "debri" problem if there is one?
The LNE bearing is "open" on trans side and sealed on IMS tube side.
The Casper Labs bearing is "open" on both sides but has a freeze plug in tube.
The Pelican bearing is a "sealed" OEM type and runs the same risk as the OEM bearing.
So exactly how is my sealess bearing such a huge mistake and "risk" for debri?
Everything back together and running. On intial startup there was the usual valvetrain noise from having oil drained for several weeks but after 5 minutes engine is nice and quite and runs perfect.
Any idea how many miles I should take it easy on the new ceramic hybrid bearing?
Note about LNE, Casper Labs, and Pelican IMS bearings. Everyone concerned about "debri" in my sealess bearing does realize that both the LNE and Casper are at risk for this "debri" problem if there is one?
The LNE bearing is "open" on trans side and sealed on IMS tube side.
The Casper Labs bearing is "open" on both sides but has a freeze plug in tube.
The Pelican bearing is a "sealed" OEM type and runs the same risk as the OEM bearing.
So exactly how is my sealess bearing such a huge mistake and "risk" for debri?
I certainly hope so. His work should be compensated. How much that compensation is, is a whole 'nuther story.
06-15-2013, 03:49 PM
#87
His work should be compensated. How much that compensation is, is a whole 'nuther story.
However if he does come out with a plug and play kit, I wouldn't be surprised if its successful, as he's already done a great job of bad mouthing and spreading the fear.
I wonder if PCA has blacklisted KK from joining yet...
06-15-2013, 04:04 PM
#88
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How many great products do we use that are modifications of what's already been in existence that just took the right person to bring them to fruition. Nothing wrong with criticism and skeptical discussion. Let each person judge and make their own decision. KK has got some of us thinking. That's worthy of applause IMO.
Last edited by dennis hiip; 06-15-2013 at 04:30 PM.
06-15-2013, 05:59 PM
#89
Rat Balls
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How many great products do we use that are modifications of what's already been in existence that just took the right person to bring them to fruition. Nothing wrong with criticism and skeptical discussion. Let each person judge and make their own decision. KK has got some of us thinking. That's worthy of applause IMO.
Paranoia is an awful thing...isn't it?
06-15-2013, 05:59 PM
#90
Drifting
Don't really know what "work" he did besides researching info that was already out there and performing your avg imsb update. Nothing out of the ordinary as far as I'm concerned.
However if he does come out with a plug and play kit, I wouldn't be surprised if its successful, as he's already done a great job of bad mouthing and spreading the fear.
I wonder if PCA has blacklisted KK from joining yet...
However if he does come out with a plug and play kit, I wouldn't be surprised if its successful, as he's already done a great job of bad mouthing and spreading the fear.
I wonder if PCA has blacklisted KK from joining yet...
+1000
It has nothing to do with being a capitalist scum. It does, however, have everything to do with being a lying and deceiving scum. A few posts ago KK insinuated that the parts list was being delayed because it "got absurdly long". Then a few posts later he posts the truth, which is that he is waiting to hear back from Pelican before he divulges his "secrets".
KK not only learned a good bit of his IM** technical knowledge from JR, he also learned about IM** marketing from him as well. Either that or they both have read "IM** Guerrilla Internet Marketing for Dummies".
It all comes down to integrity, of which KK has none(and JR has little) IMHO. KK has been on this forum slamming the 996 in almost every single one of his posts, AND NOW WE KNOW WHY. Like Raby, Krazy, has littered this forum with fear mongering for years. However, unlike Raby, KK was deceitful in his agenda(at least it only took half a brain to discern JR's agenda).
All of this has served no purpose, IMHO, but to degrade this forum and sully the 996 ownership experience for many of us here. I'd personally push around a broken 996 than give either of these two one red cent.