The hardest part of owning a porsche is...
02-22-2013, 04:55 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
Groove, that pic is awesome!!!
I'm actually starting to get a little freaked out about buying a 912. I think I'd enjoy the car, and like all of my previous cars, I'd take good care of it and likely improve on what I bought. The scary part is knowing I'll probably want to sell it in a few years and I can't go through another "porsche selling masacre". I'm torn because I LOVE these cars but the selling process is just too much for me to take. Is it me, or does everyone out there that buys and sells these cars take the hit. And I often do a lot of the work on my cars so I'm not even paying all the labor.
Here’s what I’ve found online –
All the below cars are 2002 Porsche 996 C4S (it is not specified if IMS was done in any of these listings)
33,450 miles - $42,995
53,000 miles - $35,999
60,000 miles - $31,888
99,000 miles - $26,500 sold
31,800 miles - $39,900
33,000 miles - $35,000
17,000 miles - $37,000
58,000 miles - $34,999
78,000 miles - $29,999 (2 of them)
What am I missing here? There doesn’t really seem to be any rhyme or reason to these prices. I’m just not clear on why I should list my car @ $30,000 and take less when most cars are listed way higher. I mean, there’s a car listed at $37K with 17,000 miles on it, but one with 58,000 miles on it is only $2K less?
I know I may seem like a pain in the *** here, but I really want to make this as painless and simple as possible without being unrealistic on either end of the price. And since these types of cars are sometimes bought from a distance how can anyone be so sure the higher priced cars are in any better shape than the lower priced ones?
The post I put up on my car about the “problems” was me being very honest. I would venture to say that my car, once the wheels are repaired and the seat is folding again, is about as good as one could hope for in a 11 year old car. How do I go about convincing a potential buyer that they are getting a well taken care of car. I have EVERY record of EVERYTHING ever done to the car. It has Porsche Sport Exhaust. It has an engine with only 35,000 miles on it. Why would these things not bring a premium price?
I feel like no matter what a car has, or doesn’t, it makes no difference. What’s the secret to selling a good car at a fair price without being low-balled.
I'm actually starting to get a little freaked out about buying a 912. I think I'd enjoy the car, and like all of my previous cars, I'd take good care of it and likely improve on what I bought. The scary part is knowing I'll probably want to sell it in a few years and I can't go through another "porsche selling masacre". I'm torn because I LOVE these cars but the selling process is just too much for me to take. Is it me, or does everyone out there that buys and sells these cars take the hit. And I often do a lot of the work on my cars so I'm not even paying all the labor.
Here’s what I’ve found online –
All the below cars are 2002 Porsche 996 C4S (it is not specified if IMS was done in any of these listings)
33,450 miles - $42,995
53,000 miles - $35,999
60,000 miles - $31,888
99,000 miles - $26,500 sold
31,800 miles - $39,900
33,000 miles - $35,000
17,000 miles - $37,000
58,000 miles - $34,999
78,000 miles - $29,999 (2 of them)
What am I missing here? There doesn’t really seem to be any rhyme or reason to these prices. I’m just not clear on why I should list my car @ $30,000 and take less when most cars are listed way higher. I mean, there’s a car listed at $37K with 17,000 miles on it, but one with 58,000 miles on it is only $2K less?
I know I may seem like a pain in the *** here, but I really want to make this as painless and simple as possible without being unrealistic on either end of the price. And since these types of cars are sometimes bought from a distance how can anyone be so sure the higher priced cars are in any better shape than the lower priced ones?
The post I put up on my car about the “problems” was me being very honest. I would venture to say that my car, once the wheels are repaired and the seat is folding again, is about as good as one could hope for in a 11 year old car. How do I go about convincing a potential buyer that they are getting a well taken care of car. I have EVERY record of EVERYTHING ever done to the car. It has Porsche Sport Exhaust. It has an engine with only 35,000 miles on it. Why would these things not bring a premium price?
I feel like no matter what a car has, or doesn’t, it makes no difference. What’s the secret to selling a good car at a fair price without being low-balled.
the secret is to buy the car with the sole purpose in mind of selling - i know it sounds "flipperish" however this has been my train of thought for years. i always buy a porsche for what i think/know i can sell it for in a year or 2 and not lose my *** provided i don't have any major repairs. of course you can always do what 95% of the sellers on these forums do and price your car way above market value, but you don't sound like an unhappy lonely person without friends who looks forward to several phone calls from strangers just to be disappointed nobody will pay you what you want for your car.
of course there are people like "IVANGENE" who are very spiritual and have god like gifts and can actually predcit the marketplace at any given time in the future - i always PM him when i'm about to make a purchase just to be sure its the right deal
Last edited by groovzilla; 02-22-2013 at 07:14 PM.
02-22-2013, 08:01 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
A couple of thoughts from my recent 996 search:
Location/Market: What area are you in? During my recent search, I saw lots of nice looking cars advertised in FL and CA, very few in CO. Inspecting/vetting out of town cars can be a hassle as well as expensive. Your local market might have fewer buyers, but you also might have the only clean C4S being marketed. I ended up buying a local car that was a perhaps a bit more expensive very best deals I saw advertised, but was able to thoroughly inspect the car, talk to the original selling/servicing dealer and indy that had maintained the car more recently. It was much less hassle than fly/drive or shipping the car.
Location/Weather: C4S's can demand a premium in areas that get some snow... Personally, I opted for a C2 and have no desire to take the Porsche out in the snow, but plenty of people here love to put snows on their C4's and drive them all winter, again boosting price for that particular model in CO, for example.
Condition: I looked at cars that sounded very clean as advertised that I found quite tatty, and ones that didn't have great pictures, not super well described that were pristine. Particularly the interiors... For me, this is a significant swing on the value scale, even on cars that might sound nearly identical on a description.
Replacement Engine: Personally, I don't put additional value on a factory replacement engine... I'd rather have a 75K car with a perfectly running, documented, never removed for service original engine than a car with a dealer installed replacement motor. Others might have a different perspective, but for me it is actually a price negative that it has a replacement motor.
Comparing to the 'best deal ever': Lots of price advice I see above is against 'fantastic deals' that people have heard about, often without ever seeing the car. Clean, mid-mile 996 turbo's for $35K? Yup, I looked at one (online) in FL, it sounded great. I decided against flying down to check it out, but it did sell pretty quickly. It could have been amazing car at a fantastic price, or it could have raised lots of flags when I saw it in person. Doesn't matter either way... Those deals don't come up every day and you don't have to compete against them. Just don't price your car at $10K over market and have the ad copy read "priced to sell! won't last" when it's been on the market for six months.
Comparing to wholesale auction prices: Wholesale auction cars have risks for dealers that are buying those cars, and that is factored into the price. The auction company usually does an inspection, but these are as is/where is cars. Buyers are going to get burned every once in a while and the sale prices reflect that. If you are selling privately, ignore auction prices. If you are trading in a car to a dealer, then they are somewhat relevant.
Don't trivialize repair costs: Some people are going to see your estimates of $100 to repair a scratch or paint defect and $375 to rectify curb rashed wheels as fantasy. When I see ads underestimating repair costs like that, it definitely turns me off. If you want to list cost for replacement parts, cool, but top quality bodywork and paint repair is ridiculously expensive to do right.
My price: Haven't seen your car... But overall, I saw *zero* local 2002-2004 C4S's in very clean condition with mid miles under $30K. I saw a ton of C4 Cab's, mostly with Tiptronics... Tons of them out there and not much love for them, plenty of bargain prices. But a good C4S (manual transmission?) is, in my experience, much harder to find. If you aren't overstating the condition of the car (those paint defects you mention would definitely concern me without detailed pictures), I think an ask $33K take $31K is probably a relatively quick sale if you advertise it on the forums and your local craigslist. Some of the prices suggested above? You could probably sell it in a day and have multiple buyers lined up as backups.
Secret to selling: Take lots of high quality pictures!. Maybe even a walk-around video and a start/drive video. Describe all the details. Describe the service history if you have it. Describe the ownership history if you have it. Take a picture of the option code sticker. Take a picture of the owners manuals if you have them. Example... You post one fairly grainy picture above. I immediately want to see a picture of the defects you mentioned... The scratch, the wheel rash, the bolster wear, wear on the dash buttons & carpet, the ratty splitter, tire condition. If you are using craigslist, use a photo hosting service and link to the additional high resolution pictures instead of limiting yourself to the four low-res craigslist pictures. Host the videos on youtube and link to them. Not only will you interest more buyers, but you will waste far less of your time answering questions on the condition of the car.
PS: I ended up with a 2004 C2, 55K miles at $26,500. Pristine, 100% unmolested, locally owned and serviced, cool color.
Last edited by pfbz; 02-22-2013 at 08:33 PM.
02-22-2013, 09:48 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
Prices for 996's are all over the map...
A couple of thoughts from my recent 996 search:
Location/Market: What area are you in? During my recent search, I saw lots of nice looking cars advertised in FL and CA, very few in CO. Inspecting/vetting out of town cars can be a hassle as well as expensive. Your local market might have fewer buyers, but you also might have the only clean C4S being marketed. I ended up buying a local car that was a perhaps a bit more expensive very best deals I saw advertised, but was able to thoroughly inspect the car, talk to the original selling/servicing dealer and indy that had maintained the car more recently. It was much less hassle than fly/drive or shipping the car.
Location/Weather: C4S's can demand a premium in areas that get some snow... Personally, I opted for a C2 and have no desire to take the Porsche out in the snow, but plenty of people here love to put snows on their C4's and drive them all winter, again boosting price for that particular model in CO, for example.
Condition: I looked at cars that sounded very clean as advertised that I found quite tatty, and ones that didn't have great pictures, not super well described that were pristine. Particularly the interiors... For me, this is a significant swing on the value scale, even on cars that might sound nearly identical on a description.
Replacement Engine: Personally, I don't put additional value on a factory replacement engine... I'd rather have a 75K car with a perfectly running, documented, never removed for service original engine than a car with a dealer installed replacement motor. Others might have a different perspective, but for me it is actually a price negative that it has a replacement motor.
Comparing to the 'best deal ever': Lots of price advice I see above is against 'fantastic deals' that people have heard about, often without ever seeing the car. Clean, mid-mile 996 turbo's for $35K? Yup, I looked at one (online) in FL, it sounded great. I decided against flying down to check it out, but it did sell pretty quickly. It could have been amazing car at a fantastic price, or it could have raised lots of flags when I saw it in person. Doesn't matter either way... Those deals don't come up every day and you don't have to compete against them. Just don't price your car at $10K over market and have the ad copy read "priced to sell! won't last" when it's been on the market for six months.
Comparing to wholesale auction prices: Wholesale auction cars have risks for dealers that are buying those cars, and that is factored into the price. The auction company usually does an inspection, but these are as is/where is cars. Buyers are going to get burned every once in a while and the sale prices reflect that. If you are selling privately, ignore auction prices. If you are trading in a car to a dealer, then they are somewhat relevant.
Don't trivialize repair costs: Some people are going to see your estimates of $100 to repair a scratch or paint defect and $375 to rectify curb rashed wheels as fantasy. When I see ads underestimating repair costs like that, it definitely turns me off. If you want to list cost for replacement parts, cool, but top quality bodywork and paint repair is ridiculously expensive to do right.
My price: Haven't seen your car... But overall, I saw *zero* local 2002-2004 C4S's in very clean condition with mid miles under $30K. I saw a ton of C4 Cab's, mostly with Tiptronics... Tons of them out there and not much love for them, plenty of bargain prices. But a good C4S (manual transmission?) is, in my experience, much harder to find. If you aren't overstating the condition of the car (those paint defects you mention would definitely concern me without detailed pictures), I think an ask $33K take $31K is probably a relatively quick sale if you advertise it on the forums and your local craigslist. Some of the prices suggested above? You could probably sell it in a day and have multiple buyers lined up as backups.
Secret to selling: Take lots of high quality pictures!. Maybe even a walk-around video and a start/drive video. Describe all the details. Describe the service history if you have it. Describe the ownership history if you have it. Take a picture of the option code sticker. Take a picture of the owners manuals if you have them. Example... You post one fairly grainy picture above. I immediately want to see a picture of the defects you mentioned... The scratch, the wheel rash, the bolster wear, wear on the dash buttons & carpet, the ratty splitter, tire condition. If you are using craigslist, use a photo hosting service and link to the additional high resolution pictures instead of limiting yourself to the four low-res craigslist pictures. Host the videos on youtube and link to them. Not only will you interest more buyers, but you will waste far less of your time answering questions on the condition of the car.
PS: I ended up with a 2004 C2, 55K miles at $26,500. Pristine, 100% unmolested, locally owned and serviced, cool color.
A couple of thoughts from my recent 996 search:
Location/Market: What area are you in? During my recent search, I saw lots of nice looking cars advertised in FL and CA, very few in CO. Inspecting/vetting out of town cars can be a hassle as well as expensive. Your local market might have fewer buyers, but you also might have the only clean C4S being marketed. I ended up buying a local car that was a perhaps a bit more expensive very best deals I saw advertised, but was able to thoroughly inspect the car, talk to the original selling/servicing dealer and indy that had maintained the car more recently. It was much less hassle than fly/drive or shipping the car.
Location/Weather: C4S's can demand a premium in areas that get some snow... Personally, I opted for a C2 and have no desire to take the Porsche out in the snow, but plenty of people here love to put snows on their C4's and drive them all winter, again boosting price for that particular model in CO, for example.
Condition: I looked at cars that sounded very clean as advertised that I found quite tatty, and ones that didn't have great pictures, not super well described that were pristine. Particularly the interiors... For me, this is a significant swing on the value scale, even on cars that might sound nearly identical on a description.
Replacement Engine: Personally, I don't put additional value on a factory replacement engine... I'd rather have a 75K car with a perfectly running, documented, never removed for service original engine than a car with a dealer installed replacement motor. Others might have a different perspective, but for me it is actually a price negative that it has a replacement motor.
Comparing to the 'best deal ever': Lots of price advice I see above is against 'fantastic deals' that people have heard about, often without ever seeing the car. Clean, mid-mile 996 turbo's for $35K? Yup, I looked at one (online) in FL, it sounded great. I decided against flying down to check it out, but it did sell pretty quickly. It could have been amazing car at a fantastic price, or it could have raised lots of flags when I saw it in person. Doesn't matter either way... Those deals don't come up every day and you don't have to compete against them. Just don't price your car at $10K over market and have the ad copy read "priced to sell! won't last" when it's been on the market for six months.
Comparing to wholesale auction prices: Wholesale auction cars have risks for dealers that are buying those cars, and that is factored into the price. The auction company usually does an inspection, but these are as is/where is cars. Buyers are going to get burned every once in a while and the sale prices reflect that. If you are selling privately, ignore auction prices. If you are trading in a car to a dealer, then they are somewhat relevant.
Don't trivialize repair costs: Some people are going to see your estimates of $100 to repair a scratch or paint defect and $375 to rectify curb rashed wheels as fantasy. When I see ads underestimating repair costs like that, it definitely turns me off. If you want to list cost for replacement parts, cool, but top quality bodywork and paint repair is ridiculously expensive to do right.
My price: Haven't seen your car... But overall, I saw *zero* local 2002-2004 C4S's in very clean condition with mid miles under $30K. I saw a ton of C4 Cab's, mostly with Tiptronics... Tons of them out there and not much love for them, plenty of bargain prices. But a good C4S (manual transmission?) is, in my experience, much harder to find. If you aren't overstating the condition of the car (those paint defects you mention would definitely concern me without detailed pictures), I think an ask $33K take $31K is probably a relatively quick sale if you advertise it on the forums and your local craigslist. Some of the prices suggested above? You could probably sell it in a day and have multiple buyers lined up as backups.
Secret to selling: Take lots of high quality pictures!. Maybe even a walk-around video and a start/drive video. Describe all the details. Describe the service history if you have it. Describe the ownership history if you have it. Take a picture of the option code sticker. Take a picture of the owners manuals if you have them. Example... You post one fairly grainy picture above. I immediately want to see a picture of the defects you mentioned... The scratch, the wheel rash, the bolster wear, wear on the dash buttons & carpet, the ratty splitter, tire condition. If you are using craigslist, use a photo hosting service and link to the additional high resolution pictures instead of limiting yourself to the four low-res craigslist pictures. Host the videos on youtube and link to them. Not only will you interest more buyers, but you will waste far less of your time answering questions on the condition of the car.
PS: I ended up with a 2004 C2, 55K miles at $26,500. Pristine, 100% unmolested, locally owned and serviced, cool color.
can't beat a garaged unabuzed california, tx or az car for cleanliness - unless they are stored in climate controlled enviornments and washed after use, cars in florida tend to be an oxidation nightmares especially the brakes and undersides being attacked from the salt air if the car is from the coast.
auction cars should be thought of as cars with issues - i bet 50%(or more) of auction cars are being sold for some unspecified problems - a one man show local dealer in seattle purchased a 99 996 at auction and it turned out to have intermix issue - he tried selling it locally for months and it finally most likely was sold at another auction to some drunk moron thinking he got the deal of the century.
02-23-2013, 12:14 AM
#49
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All good, sensible info, pfbz and Groove, and everyone else as well. I do very much appreciate it. I get lost in what I've posted or written because I've been posting here, another forum, and answering quite a few emails, but I've decided to get the wheels refinished and fix the seat and then post the car. As soon as we get some decent weather I'll get some good pics for the ad. I have a very good idea of what I'll put it up for (thanks to the helpful info here). Again, thanks to everyone for their help.
