An Interesting Engine Rebuild Story...
11-24-2011, 12:52 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
An Interesting Engine Rebuild Story...
Here is a person that unfortunately has no idea what they've gotten themselves into...
"... So LN engineering upgraded my engine from 3.4 to 3.6 without asking or informing me...
Can I do anything about this?..."
"...How can I be sure he is going to put in new parts and not just put in used ones..."
"...And how can I be sure that I am getting a good rebuild and will not cause problems in the future..."
"I asked him for references and he said that he cannot give his customer's information to me."
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...xperience.html
WOW!
(no offense to OP, and if you are reading this hopefully you'll see some responses here as to why you should back out now!)
"... So LN engineering upgraded my engine from 3.4 to 3.6 without asking or informing me...
Can I do anything about this?..."
"...How can I be sure he is going to put in new parts and not just put in used ones..."
"...And how can I be sure that I am getting a good rebuild and will not cause problems in the future..."
"I asked him for references and he said that he cannot give his customer's information to me."
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...xperience.html
WOW!
(no offense to OP, and if you are reading this hopefully you'll see some responses here as to why you should back out now!)
11-24-2011, 02:01 PM
#4
Instructor
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I saw that thread the other day.... seems fishy. I understand being skeptical with the mechanic (although that's over the top). But not knowing that you had a 3.4 bored to 3.6? Comon......
11-24-2011, 03:48 PM
#5
Nordschleife Master
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Wonder if his mechanic referred him to L&N. If so he's probably OK and the OP is just confused by the language of engine rebuilding.
Regardless, it appears this mechanic packaged and sent the motor to L&N so he knew there were new liners going in. Consequently he also knew he was going to be installing new pistons and rings and new head gaskets. There shouldn't be any additional charges to his original quote which I believe the OP said was $12-13k including the $5k for L&N. We need to know if he sent the heads out, how much he charged for those, and what else was included in his original quote. Was that original quote in writing?...
Wish we knew who it was or at least what city this was in....
Regardless, it appears this mechanic packaged and sent the motor to L&N so he knew there were new liners going in. Consequently he also knew he was going to be installing new pistons and rings and new head gaskets. There shouldn't be any additional charges to his original quote which I believe the OP said was $12-13k including the $5k for L&N. We need to know if he sent the heads out, how much he charged for those, and what else was included in his original quote. Was that original quote in writing?...
Wish we knew who it was or at least what city this was in....
11-24-2011, 05:57 PM
#7
Former Vendor
Pure BS. The person assembling the engine wants more money to assemble the engine and is leveraging the larger bore size. We charge the EXACT SAME for a 3.4 as a 3.6 to include parts and labor. The difference is 40HP, no loss of reliability and no loss of longevity.
Since the block was LN prepped the same work and blueprinting is required at 3.4 liters as 3.6, the only difference is the bore size. All the LN engines use JE forged pistons just like ours and those pistons require the same assembly as the 99mm bore size 3.6 cylinders.
The person that has the gripe needs to go get the car and engine back and have someone else assemble it. More than likely the SHOP ASKED for the larger bore size. Charles at LN has been working with us for 13 years and that equates to HUNDREDS of aircooled and water-cooled engines and he has never, not once made a bore size mistake on any of those.
These stories amaze me.. The shop probably doesn't even have the bore and stroke combinations of these engines memorized and if they don't, they have no business working on an engine of this caliber. The crazy part is IF that shop knows how to optimize the 3.6 they can add 40HP to the platform and never apply an ECU flash, exhaust or intake enhancement. No book tells them how to do that, though.
Since the block was LN prepped the same work and blueprinting is required at 3.4 liters as 3.6, the only difference is the bore size. All the LN engines use JE forged pistons just like ours and those pistons require the same assembly as the 99mm bore size 3.6 cylinders.
The person that has the gripe needs to go get the car and engine back and have someone else assemble it. More than likely the SHOP ASKED for the larger bore size. Charles at LN has been working with us for 13 years and that equates to HUNDREDS of aircooled and water-cooled engines and he has never, not once made a bore size mistake on any of those.
These stories amaze me.. The shop probably doesn't even have the bore and stroke combinations of these engines memorized and if they don't, they have no business working on an engine of this caliber. The crazy part is IF that shop knows how to optimize the 3.6 they can add 40HP to the platform and never apply an ECU flash, exhaust or intake enhancement. No book tells them how to do that, though.
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11-25-2011, 01:17 AM
#8
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Reminds me of a similar tactic of a certain ebay engine rebuilder...
Lure you in, take your car, tear it to pieces, and then "oh by the way, this needs work, or that will be an extra $2000 sir, oh you want that done? that will be extra ...".
What sucks is they really have no clue what they are getting into, and honestly think it is the best decision.
Found this enlightening post regarding that certain person's ebay rebuild business... worth the read!
http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic...87#entry209587
Lure you in, take your car, tear it to pieces, and then "oh by the way, this needs work, or that will be an extra $2000 sir, oh you want that done? that will be extra ...".
What sucks is they really have no clue what they are getting into, and honestly think it is the best decision.
Found this enlightening post regarding that certain person's ebay rebuild business... worth the read!
http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic...87#entry209587
11-25-2011, 02:08 AM
#9
Drifting
replying to the 6 speed thread...
In '70s thru the mid '80s and before, fitting rings was the norm. With moly faced rings and 3 piece oil ring being the standard, all rings I've seen for decades have been within spec out of the box. In the rare case of wanting more gap or using a KB hyperutectic piston, more gap is needed. If you've done this hand fitting, you know it goes really quickly and shouldn't cost the customer much extra.
In '70s thru the mid '80s and before, fitting rings was the norm. With moly faced rings and 3 piece oil ring being the standard, all rings I've seen for decades have been within spec out of the box. In the rare case of wanting more gap or using a KB hyperutectic piston, more gap is needed. If you've done this hand fitting, you know it goes really quickly and shouldn't cost the customer much extra.
11-25-2011, 11:19 PM
#10
6th Gear
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Hey everyone. Thanks for your responses. I'm the owner of the 996 which is undergoing a rebuild at the present time. Let me start by saying that I agree with all your feedback. However, I do know what I'm doing, but as always there were some speed bumps and I needed help.
I don't think I was clear in my recent posts about my stressful situation concerning my 996 cab, so let me explain. My car suffered a cracked cylinder years ago and I have researchedon these forums ever since for the best solution. I came across Ln engineering on here and decided that was best for my situation. So I packed up my stuff and headed down a long road to chicago (August 26,2011) and dropped off my cylinder halves. I thought I'd take a trip as I was home for weeks recovering from a back surgery and needed to get out. I was told that they would recondition the cylinders, I was not told it was an upgrade from 3.4 to 3.6. 3 months later (about 3 weeks ago) I received my cylinders, new pistons, and new pistons rings, then went to see my mechanic and that's when he told me it was upgraded to 3.6. I am happy with an upgrade as I was not happy with the 3.4 anyhow. The only reason I asked for some advice was because I was under the impression that this was going to cost me more money. And I cannot afford that. I have already sold my motorcycle to pay for this rebuild guys. I am committed to fixing my porsche and I never want to go down this road again.
I need to figure out how to do this rebuild right. My original quote was $7000. But now that it has been upgraded from 3.4 to 3.6 what changes must be made? What do I have to do to make sure my car has maximum performance and reliability in the future?
I don't think I was clear in my recent posts about my stressful situation concerning my 996 cab, so let me explain. My car suffered a cracked cylinder years ago and I have researchedon these forums ever since for the best solution. I came across Ln engineering on here and decided that was best for my situation. So I packed up my stuff and headed down a long road to chicago (August 26,2011) and dropped off my cylinder halves. I thought I'd take a trip as I was home for weeks recovering from a back surgery and needed to get out. I was told that they would recondition the cylinders, I was not told it was an upgrade from 3.4 to 3.6. 3 months later (about 3 weeks ago) I received my cylinders, new pistons, and new pistons rings, then went to see my mechanic and that's when he told me it was upgraded to 3.6. I am happy with an upgrade as I was not happy with the 3.4 anyhow. The only reason I asked for some advice was because I was under the impression that this was going to cost me more money. And I cannot afford that. I have already sold my motorcycle to pay for this rebuild guys. I am committed to fixing my porsche and I never want to go down this road again.
I need to figure out how to do this rebuild right. My original quote was $7000. But now that it has been upgraded from 3.4 to 3.6 what changes must be made? What do I have to do to make sure my car has maximum performance and reliability in the future?
11-26-2011, 12:01 PM
#11
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
What did that quote include? Do you have a list of parts and services to post here?
The changes have already been made, you have new cylinders. Now the engine needs to be assembled properly by a qualified person that is not telling you it will cost more money to assemble because the bore size is different than stock. There should be no "changes" required for 3.4L to 3.4L reconditioning or 3.4L to 3.6L reconditioning. In either situation the cylinder, piston, and piston ring prep is the same.
Last edited by logray; 11-26-2011 at 12:27 PM.
11-26-2011, 01:51 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
"I need to figure out how to do this rebuild right. My original quote was $7000. But now that it has been upgraded from 3.4 to 3.6 what changes must be made? What do I have to do to make sure my car has maximum performance and reliability in the future? "
IMS bearing?
IMS bearing?
11-26-2011, 02:50 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
that MOTOR MEISTER story is just like all the other MM ripoff report stories posted on the internet. what the hell does it take for the division of consumer fraud/attorney general to shut someone down?
11-26-2011, 04:12 PM
#14
Former Vendor
7,000 for labor or the entire rebuild? I spend 12-14K in PARTS for every engine we produce..
The 3.6 is no more expensive to build labor wise than a 3.4, ALL the processes are EXACTLY the same when using the processes developed by LN and my company. The piston is just larger, it isn't any more difficult to install.
The 3.6 is no more expensive to build labor wise than a 3.4, ALL the processes are EXACTLY the same when using the processes developed by LN and my company. The piston is just larger, it isn't any more difficult to install.
11-26-2011, 05:06 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
msalamza996,
For your financial and emotional well being, do heed the cautions expressed above. Do not make the same mistake I did. Having the engine on one's first Porsche go south is financially and emotionally draining but it pales in comparison to spending $9,000 to $14,000 (my experience) on a "rebuild" and having it blow within a few thousand or even 20,000 miles.
I did only 25% of the research I should have done before committing to having it "rebuilt" by an outfit that had the lack of expertise and good business practices that yours seem to have. My experience with a $9,000 rebuild cost me over $14,000 when by time I paid to replace the additional components that were destroyed when it blew the second time. I then had to have it rebuilt by someone that knows what they are doing. PM me for the sordid details.
My recommendation to you is call LN on Monday and ask to arrange a teleconference with Charles Navarro. He will give you the straight dope on what they did, why they did it and what the long term benefits are to your engine and your future enjoyment of it.
Right after you have that conversation I strongly suggest you call Flat 6 Innovations and schedule a half hour teleconference with Jake Raby. I think he blocks out Wednesday evenings for these calls. I spoke to Jake briefly prior to crossing my fingers and going with the cheaper alternative. 14k totally wasted dollars later I had one the 30 minute talks with Jake and then cashed in some miles and flew up to meet him and see his shop. My car now runs like a dream. I'd be $14k to the good had I done those two things first. You may not go with Flat 6 but you really ought to talk to Jake prior to making a deal with anyone else.
In between the calls, you can learn a lot by reading some of the posts about M96 engines here on Rennlist and on Renntech. Good luck, man.
For your financial and emotional well being, do heed the cautions expressed above. Do not make the same mistake I did. Having the engine on one's first Porsche go south is financially and emotionally draining but it pales in comparison to spending $9,000 to $14,000 (my experience) on a "rebuild" and having it blow within a few thousand or even 20,000 miles.
I did only 25% of the research I should have done before committing to having it "rebuilt" by an outfit that had the lack of expertise and good business practices that yours seem to have. My experience with a $9,000 rebuild cost me over $14,000 when by time I paid to replace the additional components that were destroyed when it blew the second time. I then had to have it rebuilt by someone that knows what they are doing. PM me for the sordid details.
My recommendation to you is call LN on Monday and ask to arrange a teleconference with Charles Navarro. He will give you the straight dope on what they did, why they did it and what the long term benefits are to your engine and your future enjoyment of it.
Right after you have that conversation I strongly suggest you call Flat 6 Innovations and schedule a half hour teleconference with Jake Raby. I think he blocks out Wednesday evenings for these calls. I spoke to Jake briefly prior to crossing my fingers and going with the cheaper alternative. 14k totally wasted dollars later I had one the 30 minute talks with Jake and then cashed in some miles and flew up to meet him and see his shop. My car now runs like a dream. I'd be $14k to the good had I done those two things first. You may not go with Flat 6 but you really ought to talk to Jake prior to making a deal with anyone else.
In between the calls, you can learn a lot by reading some of the posts about M96 engines here on Rennlist and on Renntech. Good luck, man.