rpm's S2

So it sounds like Jake has jumped off the Porsche approved motor oils bandwagon. That is a strong argument. But the caveat warning about the danger to O2 sensors and cats is confusing. Is this a danger with a 'boutique' oil like Brad Penn? What are some other brands that meet those same standards?

And I know this might seem like 'another *%$#'ing oil thread,' but that is only if you have not read the initial question. Again, the most recent issue of Excellence specifically recommends 'boutique' oil for M96 applications. My search of Rennlist found no discussion of the question of ZDDP or SAPS on the 996 or Boxster boards. This topic has been more of an issue for older air-cooled cars.

Flat6 Innovations

I have NEVER cared what Porsche recommended for oils. NONE of the cars that we see are under warranty, so its always a personal preference type of situation. With the M96 I have never cared what Porsche recommended, if I had we'd not be where we are today with open minded development.

The oil we have co-developed with Joe Gibbs has an anti-wear and detergency package that does not harm O2s or cats, finding the sweet spot of these elements was critical and had taken a long while.

What I have found time and time again is standard lubricants can't live long enough and maintain high pressure at the elevated temps of the M96, especially the 5 chain engines. These five chain engines have a ton of added friction and the oil soaks that heat up and has a hard time shedding it. Its not uncommon for oil temps to run 250F on the street under normal driving conditions and to be no where close to parallel with the coolant temps as many believe.

I found this even in a 1998 Boxster with a 2.5 engine that was bone stock when being driven by my Wife.
I have not read the Excellence article, but I'll make a point to do that.

seanmcr6

If the oil runs that hot, would adding a supplemental oil cooler not aid the situation, regardless of the oil you're running?

I am impressed with your determination to develop (in partnership) your own oil, but if you don't sell it to your customers, what's the point? They'll only be running that sweet sweet oil until their first oil change, and then they'll be back to the usual crap...

Flat6 Innovations

Absolutely.. BUT the ten million dollar question is WHERE to install the unit where it is efficient and isn't a road hazard. In a 996 there is very little space.

We do sell this to the purchasers of our engines, just not to the general public via retail. We fire engines up on our break in oil, I run them on the dyno and for 300+ miles, then we swap to the service fill of street oil and generally ship the car home with 1-2 more service fills of oil in the trunk. We can fill orders through our store for anyone with an FSI serialized engine for future services. Thats no problem.

Our purchasers are just as critical about this as we are, no one has to hold their hands to make them want to put the oil that was developed along side their engine into that engine. Its all about the big picture and creating one complete package without variables or compromise.

pesuazo

"Oil companies have been cutting back on the use of Zn and P as anti-wear additives and switching to alternative zinc-free (ZF) additives and ash-less dispersants in their new low SAPS oils since Zn, P, and sulfated ash have been found to be bad for catalytic converters. One such ZF dispersant/anti-wear additive is boron, which does not foul the catalysts in the particulate emissions filters or catalytic converters. For most owners, the reduction in longevity of a catalytic converter is a small price to pay considering the many thousands of dollars it costs to properly rebuild a Porsche engine. It is worth noting that most Porsches have lived the majority of their lives with high Zn and P oils as found in API SG-SJ oils as late as 2004, and we never hear of problems with their catalytic converters." - Charles Navarro

Look at Charles Navarro statements above, "..never hear of problems with catalytic...", but a few statements before he states that "it has been found to be bad for catalytic..." ...

WTF???

I agree in part with Jack, disagree in part..., and will not argue points...

As usual, the personal preference debate when it comes to oil. Everybody has an opinion, including me. I use the freaking Diesel oil because it has more of the anti-wear additives. Porsche has no problem "approving" or "recommending" diesel oils for their cars, just look at the attached "approved oils list" or "recommended", there are 3 listed....

Like everybody else, I ignore some Porsche recommendations (like changing the oil every 10-15K miles)....and do what I feel is best for my car...

Let's the fireworks begin !!

seanmcr6

Good points, all of em.

The biggest problem I have with oil *issues* is it takes so darn long to see the impact any one particular oil has on any one particular engine, that so many other influences occur that it makes data gathering almost impossible.

all oil is snake oil.

Especially anything recommended by the manufacturer while they are entered into a marketing partnership with said recommendation.

fpena944

Does changing the oil more frequently, like every 3k-5k miles, make a difference in how these lubricants perform? In other words if you change your oil frequently will it overcome the conditions you mentioned that frequently break down regular oils?

Cefalu

I have been thinking about diesel oils as a substitute too. A diesel engine with its compression ignition has to be tough on oil.

Motorcycles are severe duty too. I bought Liqui Moly fully synthetic racing 10W-50 for my BMW K75s, I will have to look at it a little closer as an options. :

http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/mediendb.nsf/gfx2/1502%20Racing%20Synth%204T%20SAE%2010W-50_EN.pdf/$file/1502%20Racing%20Synth%204T%20SAE%2010W-50_EN.pdf

As of now I am running royal purple synthetic. It quieted down my 5 chain motor at start up.

But, I'll take the Mount Gay, straight up.

countrysquire

FWIW, I've been running Schaeffer 9000 synthetic after reading about it in Larry Navarro's long dissertation on motor oils. Not Porsche approved, but the only other oil I saw with specs such as shear strength that were as good was Motul. The good thing about Schaeffer is that it's about $5 a quart.

Flat6 Innovations

Diesel oil used to be a better solution, but today its pretty much like any other standard oil.. Rotella saved people for years with vintage Porsche engines, but not since 2008 has it been very effective.

Todays oils promote a cleaner engine, not a better lubricated engine. Thanks to vehicle leasing programs on that one, the big 3 and the API.

Macster

Just a quick point that Porsche selecting Mobil oil as its factory fill oil makes sense. And it doesn't have to be a sell out on Porsche's part. Frankly if I thought this it wouldn't be a matter of which oil to use in my Porsche it would be a matter of how quickly can I unload my stable of Porsches before the bottom falls out and buy a car from an automaker I can trust to specify the right oil.

Exxon/Mobil (but from now on I'll just type Mobil) produces alot of the synthetic oil stocks the boutique oils use.

Mobil has good presence all over the world.

If one looks at an up to date Porsche approved oils list there are more Mobil oils available with the WW (world wide) classification than any other brand.

To reduce its costs Porsche can drive I would guess a pretty good deal for Mobil oil and no matter where you go for an oil change a Porsche dealer is Seattle WA is going to have the same Mobil oil that the dealer in Miami FL has on hand.

In fact, the same oil is very likely available in Perth, Tokyo, Bejing, Bangalore, London, Berlin, Moscow, Zurich, Rome, Madrid, NY, LA, Springfield (MO) and Livermore CA, and so on and so forth.

I agree with your point about oil and the time it takes for any oil related issues to make their presence known. Even with the devil's own oil in the engine (Mobil 0w-40) alot of these engines exhibit absolutely no signs of any oil related/lubrication related issues. They just run and run quite well. As they do with the heaven sent boutique oil du jour.

Sincerely,

Macster.

Macster

I would seriously advise you to reconsider running a diesel oil in your Porsche gasoline engine.

While diesel vs. gas engine compression differences look significant there are other differences that are more significant and diesel oils are specfically designed to deal with these.

These are lower combjustion temperatures, lower operating engine speeds, higher levels of soot and diesel fuel contamination.

(Drain a diesel engine even after just 500 miles of running after an oil/filter change and the oil is black as the ace of spades. Otoh I've sometimes drained my Boxster's oil after 5K miles of almost a week's worth of nearly continuous running and the oil still has a hint of its oil color to it visible in the oil drain stream as it pours from the engine to the drain pan.)

Speaking of diesel fuel: Remember diesel fuel is a pretty good lubricant. Diesel engines, modern ones anyhow, use direct injection and require a fuel pump that not only only can deliver a slug of diesel fuel under many thousands of PSI but deliver an accurately measured slug of fuel and do it combustion cycle after combustion cycle. Diesel fuel pumps quite simply amazing devices.

Anyhow, diesel oils have high levels of detergents to combat sludge development from all the soot and water and fuel contamination.

The also have higher levels of anti-wear additives. These tend to increase the oil's viscosity and this can actually work against the oil -- especially in a higher revving gas engine -- causing the oil's temperature to increase, this coming from the increased friction the oil experiences from the heavy dose of additives.

Not even Porsche approves Mobil's 'best' diesel oil for use in Porsches equipped with diesel engines. And furthermore, not even Mobil says its 'best' diesel oil is suitable for use in gasoline engines.

Leave the diesel oils for diesels.

At least consider running a Porsche approved oil in your Porsche. At least change the oil at the factory recommended frequency and ideally more often than that.

The engine will thank you for this by delivering miles and miles of trouble free running.

Sincerely,

Macster.

pesuazo

"not even Mobil says its 'best' diesel oil is suitable for use in gasoline engines."

With all due respect, I disagree.....read the product data sheet for Mobil 1 5W-40 for Turbo Diesel engines...

"Applications
Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 is recommended for use in all super high performance diesel applications, including modern low emission engine designs with Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR). These applications include the following:

•On-highway engines operating in both high speed/high load and stop-and-go conditions
•Off-highway engines operating in severe low speed/heavy load conditions
•Virtually all diesel powered equipment from American, European, and Japanese equipment builders
•High performance gasoline engines and mixed fleets
•Refrigeration units
API CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS/CI-4/CH-4/CG-4/ SM/SL/SJ

"Not even Porsche approves Mobil's 'best' diesel oil for use in Porsches equipped with diesel engines." You are correct, they have not approved Mobil's diesel Oil, but have approved 3 other Diesel oils for Porsches equipped with Gasoline engines...

seanmcr6

I'm not saying Porsche is using Mobil 1 strictly for the cash, if it was **** oil and bad for their engine, that would be professional suicide. I'm just saying if Shell sold a comparable synthetic oil that met the needs of the platform and were willing to spend more $$$ in marketing partnerships, Porsche would recommend Shell. It's not all that dubious.

Let's face it....to a certain extent....oil is oil is oil. Most of the synthetics out there, at the right weights, would protect the flat 6 just fine. The arguments are always centred around which one is BEST. I don't think anyone will ever have a definitive answer to that question.

My point is that Porsche doesn't recommend Mobil because it is the BEST oil for the flat 6, they recommend it because it's a good (even great) oil and they have a business partnership with them. So take that recommendation with a grain of salt.

sean

Flat6 Innovations

Lubrizol makes the additive package for the Joe Gibbs products, not Mobil. The buckets of test oil that we receive in 5 gallon pails and 55 gallon drums come directly from Lubrizol.