Notices
996 Forum 1999-2005
Sponsored by:

996 Carrera 4S broken AWD

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Nov 17, 2010 | 08:22 AM
  #31  
DaveCarrera4's Avatar
DaveCarrera4
Banned
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,837
Likes: 16
From: Madison, WI
Default

This has nothing to do with the C4/C4S: "If you take an already "thick" fluid that has a HIGH volume expansion ratio with increasing temperature and "trap" it in a fixed volume hermetically sealed container and then begin heating it.

With the gas bubble you can delay the onset of increased coupling so there is little or no reaction to "ordinary" F/R drive line slippage, turning or even slightly different tire wear F/R. But once the delay is overcome the slope of the onset can be dramatic."

Can you find an example of the gas bubble theory employed in a vehicle? Lets stay with how the vc works in a C4/C4S. Here is another quote lifted from http://www.356-911.com/post1974/2004...6carrera4.htm; note there is nothing about bubbles or density change - it is not part of the equation:

Porsche 911 Carrera 4

Traction on Four Wheels

The viscous multiple-plate clutch is housed in the front axle drive unit,conveying drive power to the front axle and compensating for any difference in engine speed between the two axles. Like a multiple-plate lock, the clutch is made up of inner plates fastened to the hub and outer plates connected to the housing. Silicon fluid comes between the plates in a totally sealed compartment. As soon as there is a difference in speed, shear forces between the silicon fluid and the plates transmit torque and drive power to the front axle as required.

A further advantage, particularly in a sports car, is the low weight, all components of the four-wheel-drive system weighing a mere 55 kilos or 121 lb. This makes Porsche's dynamic four-wheel-drive system one of the lightest in the market.

and...another good link describing the device: http://www.axlefacts.com/education/v...-coupling.aspx

testing the VC operation:

Using a heavy floor jack with wheels, put a block of wood on the jack and raise the rear of the van using the skid plate. Be careful, you can bend it. The wood block, if long enough, distributes the weight across enough of the skid plate to minimize that risk. Lift both back wheels off the ground 6" or so on a smooth level parking lot, with the jack's wheels parallel to the Syncro's. The rear of the van will be moving on the jack wheels, so you need to make sure there are no obstructions that could catch the jack wheels and cause the van to fall off the jack.

Now, put a 1x1 piece of wood in front of each front tire, 2x4 may work too. You need to block the front wheels like this to be able to test whether the VC is capable of absorbing the spinning of the rear wheels without locking up and causing the front wheels to engage and climb over the wood. If you can get the rear wheels to turn/spin in the air with the clutch fully disengaged, and without the van climbing over the wood blocking the front wheels (can't be too high...1-2"), then the VC is definitely good, or the fluid is not cooked. The van should climb over the blocks as soon as you increase the engine RPMs.

It may take several tries to get the van to do this. The VC is very sensitive, and it will want to engage as you let the clutch out. Some advise using the hand brake to help slow the spin of the rear wheels ... or to start them spinning slowly at first. It is really neat when you get it to work. Suddenly, the VC is working before your eyes in a very graphic way!

That is enough research for one day...

DC4
Reply
Old Nov 17, 2010 | 10:58 AM
  #32  
tooloud10's Avatar
tooloud10
Team Owner
15 Year Member
 
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,539
Likes: 195
From: IA
Default

Originally Posted by JDSStudios
I don't think it is BROKEN; like I mentioned in post #3, AWD and 4x4 are two different things.

Do you think this Porsche C4 in the link is also broken?:
http://www.youtube.com/user/JohnnyGu...25/iV8pB6OQCTI
+1
Reply
Old Nov 17, 2010 | 02:03 PM
  #33  
wwest's Avatar
wwest
Drifting
 
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,467
Likes: 16
From: redmond wa
Default

I think you would agree that it is highly desireable to have the coefficient of coupling increase at a non-linear rate, HIGH "attack" rate, as a function of the difference in rotation rate of the two sets of clutch plates. I think that you would also agree that the "shearing" results in at least some level of HEATING of the fluid. Now if you can accept that a VC fluid can be formulated, SPECIALTY FORMULATION, to have a very high expansion ratio with even a slight rise in temperature the we can come to an understanding.

But now we have a VC that might "stiffen", dramatically STIFFEN, even in a light throttle tight turn. Highly UNDESIREABLE, that, as it would result in premature drive line component failures due to over-stressing/HEATING.

So. Add a small air bubble that must be compressed to "ZILCH" before the VC fluid coupling coefficient can begin having a dramatic effect on engine torque distribution and you have an ideal REACTIVE F/R drive coupling system.

Last edited by wwest; Nov 17, 2010 at 04:16 PM.
Reply
Old Nov 19, 2010 | 07:54 PM
  #34  
DaveCarrera4's Avatar
DaveCarrera4
Banned
 
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,837
Likes: 16
From: Madison, WI
Default

The bubble you speak of would get ground into a billion tiny bubbles by the tight tolerance plate pack.
Reply
Old Nov 19, 2010 | 11:56 PM
  #35  
wwest's Avatar
wwest
Drifting
 
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,467
Likes: 16
From: redmond wa
Default

Yes, but then all billion "tiny bubbles" must still be compressed to zilch before the VC will convey torque.
Reply
Old Aug 5, 2011 | 06:43 PM
  #36  
SAM DACOSTA's Avatar
SAM DACOSTA
Racer
15 Year Member
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 456
Likes: 1
From: Rio Rancho, New Mexico
Default

Allow me to add a real world scenario regarding the 'vicous coupling' -

I just had my 2002 Porsche C4S smoged at a station that did not have a 4 wheel dyno and they attempted to smog the car on a 2 wheel dyno and during the smog check a loud boom was heard, with a simutaenouls hearsh vibration of the car. That was the viscous coupling ecploding due to excessive heat becasue the front wheels were restricted from turing during the test.

The car is now at my Indi Porsche Shop being repaired.
Reply
Old Aug 5, 2011 | 07:01 PM
  #37  
Mabuhay's Avatar
Mabuhay
Racer
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
From: Timbukto
Default

Originally Posted by SAM DACOSTA
Allow me to add a real world scenario regarding the 'vicous coupling' -

I just had my 2002 Porsche C4S smoged at a station that did not have a 4 wheel dyno and they attempted to smog the car on a 2 wheel dyno and during the smog check a loud boom was heard, with a simutaenouls hearsh vibration of the car. That was the viscous coupling ecploding due to excessive heat becasue the front wheels were restricted from turing during the test.

The car is now at my Indi Porsche Shop being repaired.
Ummm...ok... you can't just write the above and not state the whole story... You're just being a tease. How about stating what happened afterwards? Did the station manager apologize, are they paying for the damages, etc. etc... tell us the story man!!!
Reply
Old Aug 5, 2011 | 07:11 PM
  #38  
SAM DACOSTA's Avatar
SAM DACOSTA
Racer
15 Year Member
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 456
Likes: 1
From: Rio Rancho, New Mexico
Default

Originally Posted by Mabuhay
Ummm...ok... you can't just write the above and not state the whole story... You're just being a tease. How about stating what happened afterwards? Did the station manager apologize, are they paying for the damages, etc. etc... tell us the story man!!!
Sorry didn't think all details were relevant to the topic. Yes, the station owner has accepted full liability and the car is presently at a Porsche Shop awaiting repairs (Hergesheimer Motorsports, in Lake Forest, CA.)

http://www.hergesheimer.com/

This just happened this week Monday, so the car has not been repaired or even looked at as of yet. The shop Technician was negligent in his duties and skipped the references which would have told him that he was going to smog an AWD vehicle, thus the cost to return the vehicle to original condition is being covered by the owner.
Reply
Rennlist Stories

The Best Porsche Posts for Porsche Enthusiasts

story-0

Theon Goes Full Carbon Fiber With Stunning New Build

 Verdad Gallardo
story-1

Genius Porsche-Themed Gifts That'll Make Any Dad or Grad Smile

 Joe Kucinski
story-2

10 Used Porsches Are Selling for Way Too Cheap

 Joe Kucinski
story-3

Tuner Is Converting Porsche 911s Into Shooting Brakes

 Verdad Gallardo
story-4

This Coachbuilt Creation Is A Modern Take on the Legendary Porsche 917

 Verdad Gallardo
story-5

Is This Convertible Cayenne A Steal, Or A Returnless Investment?

 Verdad Gallardo
story-6

10 Best Non-Flat Six Porsches You Can Buy For Under $100K

 Joe Kucinski
story-7

Porsche's Top 5 Most Questionable Naming Decisions

 Verdad Gallardo
story-8

Pogea Racing's 964 Porsche 911 Reimagination Stands Out in a Crowded Field

 Verdad Gallardo
story-9

6 Convertible Top MYTHS Most People Don't Understand!

 Michael S. Palmer
Old Aug 5, 2011 | 10:11 PM
  #39  
Goldenwarrior1's Avatar
Goldenwarrior1
Pro
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 554
Likes: 1
From: Virginia
Default

Directly from the Porsche Manual...
"The viscous coupling is filled with a precisely defined volume
of high-viscosity silicone oil and sealed. It is not possible
to top up oil or to check the oil level."

"If the inside and outside discs rotate at different speeds,
friction in the fluid transfers torque from the faster to the
slower discs. The discs are completely separated by the
oil and abrasion or wear therefor cannot occur."
Reply
Old Aug 7, 2011 | 02:31 AM
  #40  
fpb111's Avatar
fpb111
Rennlist Member
15 Year Member
 
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,544
Likes: 108
From: Northern NJ
Default

It's basically a torque converter filled with fancy silicone fluid.
Like a version of the one in your uncle Ed's Buick.

Reply




All times are GMT -3. The time now is 10:22 PM.

story-0
Theon Goes Full Carbon Fiber With Stunning New Build

Slideshow: Built around a carbon-bodied 964 and a naturally aspirated 4.0-liter flat-six, this bespoke commission highlights how far the restomod formula has evolved.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-06-06 14:41:46


VIEW MORE
story-1
Genius Porsche-Themed Gifts That'll Make Any Dad or Grad Smile

Slideshow: Six genius gifts that'll make any Dad smile.

By Joe Kucinski | 2026-06-08 16:57:00


VIEW MORE
story-2
10 Used Porsches Are Selling for Way Too Cheap

Slideshow: These 10 used Porsches offer more driving thrills than their price would suggest.

By Joe Kucinski | 2026-06-03 09:11:13


VIEW MORE
story-3
Tuner Is Converting Porsche 911s Into Shooting Brakes

Slideshow: A Polish Porsche specialist is moving ahead with one of the most unusual 911 conversions in recent memory: a shooting brake version of the 991-generation sports car.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-06-01 19:46:47


VIEW MORE
story-4
This Coachbuilt Creation Is A Modern Take on the Legendary Porsche 917

Slideshow: A Porsche Carrera GT has been transformed into a one-off coachbuilt machine that blends analog supercar engineering with styling inspired by the legendary 917 race cars.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-06-01 17:06:04


VIEW MORE
story-5
Is This Convertible Cayenne A Steal, Or A Returnless Investment?

Slideshow: A heavily modified Porsche Cayenne convertible with faux wood trim and a long list of flaws recently sold at auction for surprisingly little money.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-05-29 18:52:37


VIEW MORE
story-6
10 Best Non-Flat Six Porsches You Can Buy For Under $100K

Slideshow: If you have $100K to spend on a Porsche but want something a little different, these are the 10 best non-flat six Porsches you can buy.

By Joe Kucinski | 2026-05-28 15:36:11


VIEW MORE
story-7
Porsche's Top 5 Most Questionable Naming Decisions

Slideshow: For a company obsessed with engineering precision, Porsche has occasionally named its cars in ways that left even loyal enthusiasts scratching their heads.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-05-27 18:43:48


VIEW MORE
story-8
Pogea Racing's 964 Porsche 911 Reimagination Stands Out in a Crowded Field

Slideshow: Pogea Racing's latest Porsche 964 project blends carbon-fiber construction, modern chassis upgrades, and up to 500 horsepower while keeping the air-cooled 911 experience firmly analog.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-05-23 10:34:27


VIEW MORE
story-9
6 Convertible Top MYTHS Most People Don't Understand!

Slideshow: dispelling common convertible top myths

By Michael S. Palmer | 2026-04-03 00:00:00


VIEW MORE