redridge

in before the close....

ivangene

I see many ways to approach this bearing and unless you are an engineer, machinist, or hobbyist with mad skills the only safe aproach is to buy one that is already proven, well designed and marketed.

If I were to make my own, that's cool.... if I were to buy someone else's and reverse engineer it for myself, that might be pushing it a little....but the truth is there are other ways of doing it AND with enough time other ways will come out - some will even become available for sale as kits.. its just the way of things.

SO where do you put your trust? In who's kit? The best tested one, the cheapest, the coolest looking, the one who's "Ad" speaks to you... fine.... thats also normal. Or like I often do, come up with something else and give it a try. IIRC Joaquin made his own kit a while ago, as more and more will become the case. Some of those will be "better" some will not.

I am not a lawyer but there are legal issues surrounding some of the things that will come out, those things can be fought in the legal system. For me its good to see new ways of doing the same thing, and like Jake says that thing wont work... but given Joaquin's does, its just a matter of time

to all the thinkers !

ivangene

BTW - I see no reason to close this thread. It might not have much interest and be about as well liked as the pleage, but there is nothing wrong with it in an open Porsche M96 forum - it seems to be discussing an issue (albeit AGAIN) that involves the cars on this forum - a fix (or possible fix) to an issue that does involve cars on this forum...

maybe it will die out, but I hope it doesnt get closed, that would really say something to me (although I dont know what it would say)

TCallas

To whom this may concern:

I am currently attending Jake Raby's and Charles Navarro's class in Cleveland, Georgia. I asked what other ideas there were as to aftermarket IMS bearings in the market and this started a S#1T storm. Jake and Charles showed and asked me (us) as a second opinion as to how this was possible, for your IMS bearing to fit properly. Now, after careful inspection of your fabricated parts (Photo), it is apparent that there is no way for your IMS bearing to fit onto an engine and have enough clearance for the flywheel speed/reference sensor teeth. As far as I know, there are no differences in this area in comparison from the European to US engine cases. Have you actuall fit your IMS bearing onto and engine including fitment of the flywheel? “Please explain”.

Thank you,
Tony Callas
Callas Rennsport
Torrance, Ca

PS The class was awesome, thank you guys...

Jake Raby

We don't want this thread to be closed either. We want to see how it works and have some better understanding of how it works.

People have original ideas... People can also imitate others and thats always going to happen. When given a challenge humans will make things happen and overcome.

I have no problem with other IMS kits, in fact I find it funny that something that we were told couldn't be done is now being done by others with "other kits" at different price points for different buyers and applications. There is a discussion over on Pelican Parts pertaining to their upcoming kit as well as another going on now. Who cares? Remember, urban legend still says that the IMS failure doesn't even exist... Supply and demand, the bearings supposedly don't fail so where does the demand come from???

We knew that the IMSR would become more widespread and we knew that others would jump on the bandwagon, because thats what always happens.. Imitation if the most common form of compliment in my world, its been happening to me and to Charles for YEARS!

I have no problem with the other kits at all, those who come our way will be doing so to attain the absolute answer from those who ORIGINALLY fought the battles and had the first commercially available kit. They will do that and pay the required cost because they appreciate what we have created and want to share it with us. They want to compensate us for our efforts.

What I do have a problem with is being targeted and having statements made that something is "better" when the pictures suggest that the component won't even install and operate in an actual engine. These statements need to be substantiated.

All I want to see is this bearing with the pictured flange in a non modified state function on a running engine with a stock non modified flywheel.. Who has those pictures? If this has been tested I am sure it was documented.

ALL the members of our M96 101 class that just wrapped up saw with their own eyes the clear flange interference issues that I have pictured in my previous thread. As each attendee viewed the issue the same look appeared on their face, followed by a little laughter and then the reality that something just doesn't add up. It'll take a miracle to explain how this one will work-

That said, if two dozen IMS retrofits popped up tomorrow on the market I'd know that what I have done with my own hands was done in the manner that offers the best total cost and the least compromise. Other kits will pop up over time, hell the IMS bearing had been swapped (using lesser quality bearings) even before we did it. The difference was there were no standardized parts, procedures or widespread application or instructions.

I've already had my fun, retrofitted engines, saved engines, helped develop pullers and procedures and shot videos about the IMSR.. I just want to see this component that is so highly engineered actually function. Thats all.

soulfly

Flywheel stock

This is a picture INSARO kit installed. I detail tomorrow all the relevant technical information to clarify the problems of assembling and rolling resistance of the second bearing and the kit in general. For us it`s very important to communicate the safety and reliability of the system, that is why the kit is under international patent and a three-year warranty. The document is on the website.

It is not necessary to change/modify the flywheel, or any element, the kit is already installed in different cars with very good results , and fit perfectly. Remember that ims shaft is machined inside so the second bearing fits perfectly.

A note Jake, this kit is not a copy, is a new development at 100%

Greetings
RobertoR.
INSARO Proyect Manager

Charles Navarro

Thank you for the photo as shown with a Tiptronic flexplate. Have you fitted it with a dual mass flywheel as well? If so, how have you addressed the clearance issues as documented. Do you have additional photos of these installations? There are variations between manual and Tiptronic models where some might have clearance while others might now. We found this out first hand.

I look forward to seeing your technical explanation of how your kit works and and what testing methods you have used.

ivangene

Jake,
I said "better" and that wasn't meant to imply there is anything wrong with your units. I think ( and have shouted long and loud) your kits are great, well made, highly engineered and tested and a "must have" for all M96 motors....hands down, the best. I have inspected them at close detail and find them to be excellent on all aspects.

the reason I put "better" in parenthesis was that the word better comes from the person selling the kits or new idea... thats all. Just wanted to clear the air on that point

juankimalo

I want to say that I found this thread so interesting to be closed too.

There are too much technical things to read, and I must say that I love this kind of threads.


Raby/Navarro are asking the way to fit and working with the flywheel. I've been talking to Rober (Insaro) by phone. He gave me a great explanation on every detail of his product. There are different references and all of them work perfectly in every tipe of flywheel.
You have insisted in the same point: if fit with the flywheel. Yes, it fits properly.
It works properly, in manual gear box, Tiptronic S box, etc.

The most important thing that we are discussing is:

Someone had a clever idea = build a new solution to erase the terrible problem, a blown engine due to a bearing failure.

I'm going to talk about me: I particularly reinforced the critic area, but though I used a high quality hybrid bearing, and an enlarge bearing support, there is no posibility to assure that I'm free of an engine failure.

That's the real question. LN/Raby developed a very good preventive kit to prevent a bearing failure.

Rober from Insaro developed a total different idea. An ultimate solution which offers you the way to preserve your engine intact, if you have a bearing failure.
His solution offers an spectacular bearing support which is ready to hold 4 tons, and add the engine lifeguard with a secondary bearing, placed perfectly to make several different jobs:

1) work as a second bearing to replace the main bearing task if It would fail.
2) alert the driver about a problem into his engine. The driver could continue driving for more than 60 hours without compromise the engine
3) If you're driving faster and your engine is going to fail, you can suffer an accident. With this solution you can save your life.


As I've taking to Rober I can say that he was preparing an extense explanation, that translated into english for all you.
Be patient, because you'll get surprising arguments. Rober is a fantastic engineer, and he is not playing the fool. Nobody is going to develop an impossible idea who doesn't work and introduce it as the best of the best.

For every rennlister who'd like to know that there is a definitve solution: wait for Rober explanations. He will publish them tomorrow

For those who aren't open to receive news, improvements, real solutions...: I think that there are different ways to solve a real problem, and I must say that this from Insaro, has no comparison to any other seen before. There is no a copy. It's a clever an effective solution.

For those who criticize this product: It's very different to other products in the market. We cannot say that are similar, because It's totally new, looking for a definitive solution, erasing the real problem. There's no comparison. They have the same similitudes that a horse and a fish have.

The main bearing works perfect. Could it fail? it's very very difficult to see a hybrid compound bearing failure. The bearing support was made in a 20 mm special steel alloy. Three special Viton material seals protect the external piece avoiding any oil leak. The secondary bearing will work fine in the remote case of a bearing failure. The IMS will not never fall down. The engine could work properly, and you'll receive an alert in your cockpit.

The lubrication sistem will work perfectly without any lack in any part of the pieces. All of them was calculated.

Please, wait for Rober's technical explanations

juankimalo

Ivan, I posted it to share this information with everybody here.
All of us know that Porsche M96 engines are not the example of perfection. If someone has developed/invented a REAL solution, and It works perfectly (though there always would be critic voices trying to look for a nonexistent lack, because could be a threat).

I personally say that this solution is much better than any other seen before, because It fits the problem completely 100% = avoid a blown engine

If you want to say better, ok if others wanted to say another adjective, ok. Everyone could say whatever consider more suitable.

juankimalo

Do you really think that an expert engineer is going to introduce a product which doesn't fit of the flywheel without testing before?
I understand the questions that Raby/Navarro did, because It could affect their companies, but with the same reason someone could ask them If they are 100% sure and guarantee that their kits are eternal, and are never going to fail and cause a blown engine.

kent

To be honest, the competition is always good for our customers!!
since the labor for installing the kit is over $1000, i really hope it has at least longer warranty than the factory one. The LN kit that installed in my car only has 1 year warranty. thats kind of too short to my car indeed.

ivangene

I agree, good to talk about the solutions - the only way over the fear and lower prices on the market is knowledge and prevention though action

Its exciting to see

bigchunk

I will wait and see what the guy that designed the bearing says, but the worry i have would be this, if the main bearing were to fail and the secondary bearing done its job and kept the shaft in place and the engine was still functioning, what about all the damaged parts of the main bearing that collapsed? surely they would all be getting pumped about the engine, destroying main bearing shells, crankshafts etc especially if the engine is still running?
I am sure that the only engines that have been saved are ones that have been caught just as the bearing fails, which obviously means that the collapsed bearing parts have not had time to be pumped around the engine and ruin the rest of it?
Just a thought!

juankimalo

I do really thought that the prices were a bit expensive at the first time, but after reading all the interesting elements that Insaro was offering I said:

What is expensive? What is cheap? You must analyze it.

A product could be expensive or cheap depending or several factors.
Is a 911 a expensive car? It depends what this car could offer you. For me is a accurate priced car because brings me a huge driving pleasure. Others don't think the same as everything is relative.

A total solution which saves your engine in the remote likelhood of a bearing failure, should seem cheap, compare to the amount of money that a reman engine will cost.
In my particular view, I'm glad with my car. Works fine and has a 12 mm reinforced bearing support, besides a SKF hybrid ceramic compound bearing. Only has 41.300 km. I'm not going to spend any extra euro at now, but next time I'd have to change clutch, this option will be surely installed.


I've seen all the complex data, and I received an extended explanation about each little detail of the kit.
I know that he is finishing an extended translation with several paragraphs to make you understand all the doubts. (It's the handicap with the foreign language and technical vocabulary)