996 intake systems,, worth it?
03-29-2010, 08:43 PM
#31
Nordschleife Master
I have an EVO that was on my car when I bought it - I'm also skeptical of HP claims, but I do like the noise that it makes, so in the end the performance claims are a moot point to me.... now if I had a stock intake and contemplating putting the CAI on, then I probably would find other ways to make noise. 
03-30-2010, 12:24 AM
#32
Race Car
It is just that I get so fed up with some of these aftermarket guys claiming a 10+ gain in HP with their "cold" air intake, when that "cold" air is coming directly from inside the "hot" engine bay.
The Porsche Carrera Power Kit costs $16,900 and adds 26 HP. That included modified cylinder heads, carbon-fiber air filter casing (upper part), new variable resonance intake manifold, sports exhaust system, and modified engine management. So the aftermarket claims that a $350 to $600 air intake alone will add 10+ HP is ludicrous. Even if a CAI did add 5 HP, on a MK II car with 320 HP that additional 5 HP is a 1.6% increase in power. Who would ever notice that?
Can anyone say that the stock air intake leaves the engine starving for air? The volume of air that moves through the stock intake is more than the engine needs if no additional changes are made to the engine.
The Porsche Carrera Power Kit costs $16,900 and adds 26 HP. That included modified cylinder heads, carbon-fiber air filter casing (upper part), new variable resonance intake manifold, sports exhaust system, and modified engine management. So the aftermarket claims that a $350 to $600 air intake alone will add 10+ HP is ludicrous. Even if a CAI did add 5 HP, on a MK II car with 320 HP that additional 5 HP is a 1.6% increase in power. Who would ever notice that?
Can anyone say that the stock air intake leaves the engine starving for air? The volume of air that moves through the stock intake is more than the engine needs if no additional changes are made to the engine.
Spot on.
03-30-2010, 07:41 PM
#33
I can't tell if this was a joke, so I apologize if I missed the tone. How is the fact that Porsche is willing to sell you something for $17000 validation that you can't achieve similar results for less? Does a supercharger setup cost the same for the same power gain? Does a $5,000 PSE add the same amount of power as a $1000 exhaust setup or for that matter at $500 setup?
03-30-2010, 08:07 PM
#34
Race Car
03-31-2010, 10:37 AM
#35
The problem with the X51 argument is that it presupposes all you're getting is a peak horsepower number. The X51 kit doesn't create one great big peak power moment that you can brag about, which a lot of bolt on mods do. It...
- Gives you more power across the full rpm range.
- Does so in a way that keeps the engine emissions and noise law compliant.
- Does so in a way that does not compromise reliability or durability of other components or affect warranty-ability (remember, this kit was sold for new cars).
- Does so at a huge expense, which includes I'm sure some generous margins for Porsche.
Lots of bolt on mods could very well give you the same peak power bragging rights. But they'll...
- Give it to you in a less usable way, such as a spike near the redline.
- Give it to you in a way that makes the car loud and possibly less efficient.
- Give it to you with risk of, say, an air supply that's not as clean as the manufacturer's standards dictate and could, over the service life of the car, compromise other components.
- Give it to you cheap.
Peak power is a virtually meaningless number to the experience of driving a car, so it's a lousy way to compare mods, IMHO. And for sure, the horsepower-per-dollar argument is specious. If that's what really counted, we'd all be driving Corvettes.
- Gives you more power across the full rpm range.
- Does so in a way that keeps the engine emissions and noise law compliant.
- Does so in a way that does not compromise reliability or durability of other components or affect warranty-ability (remember, this kit was sold for new cars).
- Does so at a huge expense, which includes I'm sure some generous margins for Porsche.
Lots of bolt on mods could very well give you the same peak power bragging rights. But they'll...
- Give it to you in a less usable way, such as a spike near the redline.
- Give it to you in a way that makes the car loud and possibly less efficient.
- Give it to you with risk of, say, an air supply that's not as clean as the manufacturer's standards dictate and could, over the service life of the car, compromise other components.
- Give it to you cheap.
Peak power is a virtually meaningless number to the experience of driving a car, so it's a lousy way to compare mods, IMHO. And for sure, the horsepower-per-dollar argument is specious. If that's what really counted, we'd all be driving Corvettes.
03-31-2010, 12:22 PM
#37
I always wonder what additional changes were made to the car to allow them to get a proven XX HP gain. Their wording is such that it makes me wonder. Here is a good example. I changed the manufacturer name to XYZ:
The second sentence boasts that the engineers were able get 30 HP gain on a Mustang, but it doesn't say that the 30 HP gain was attributed only to the CAI.
It has been a long time since I got sucked into a CAI thread! No more!
I would rather debate oil!
"How does a XYZ air intake increase horsepower? It all stars with The World's Best Air Filter............ In fact, on the 2003 Ford Mustang SVT, XYZ engineers were able to achieve an impressive increase of 30 horsepower!"
The second sentence boasts that the engineers were able get 30 HP gain on a Mustang, but it doesn't say that the 30 HP gain was attributed only to the CAI.
It has been a long time since I got sucked into a CAI thread! No more!
I would rather debate oil!
So should I be running 0W-40 mobil 1 or 75w-90 valvoline?
03-31-2010, 12:23 PM
#38
Drifting
The problem with the X51 argument is that it presupposes all you're getting is a peak horsepower number. The X51 kit doesn't create one great big peak power moment that you can brag about, which a lot of bolt on mods do. It...
- Gives you more power across the full rpm range.
- Does so in a way that keeps the engine emissions and noise law compliant.
- Does so in a way that does not compromise reliability or durability of other components or affect warranty-ability (remember, this kit was sold for new cars).
- Does so at a huge expense, which includes I'm sure some generous margins for Porsche.
Lots of bolt on mods could very well give you the same peak power bragging rights. But they'll...
- Give it to you in a less usable way, such as a spike near the redline.
- Give it to you in a way that makes the car loud and possibly less efficient.
- Give it to you with risk of, say, an air supply that's not as clean as the manufacturer's standards dictate and could, over the service life of the car, compromise other components.
- Give it to you cheap.
Peak power is a virtually meaningless number to the experience of driving a car, so it's a lousy way to compare mods, IMHO. And for sure, the horsepower-per-dollar argument is specious. If that's what really counted, we'd all be driving Corvettes.
- Gives you more power across the full rpm range.
- Does so in a way that keeps the engine emissions and noise law compliant.
- Does so in a way that does not compromise reliability or durability of other components or affect warranty-ability (remember, this kit was sold for new cars).
- Does so at a huge expense, which includes I'm sure some generous margins for Porsche.
Lots of bolt on mods could very well give you the same peak power bragging rights. But they'll...
- Give it to you in a less usable way, such as a spike near the redline.
- Give it to you in a way that makes the car loud and possibly less efficient.
- Give it to you with risk of, say, an air supply that's not as clean as the manufacturer's standards dictate and could, over the service life of the car, compromise other components.
- Give it to you cheap.
Peak power is a virtually meaningless number to the experience of driving a car, so it's a lousy way to compare mods, IMHO. And for sure, the horsepower-per-dollar argument is specious. If that's what really counted, we'd all be driving Corvettes.
And I couldn't agree more, big (peak) numbers on the dyno don't count in the real world.
03-31-2010, 12:28 PM
#39
Weathergirl
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
That would give a very useful idea of how much a power mod would actually improve the driving experience, even if it made no gains, or even a loss at the peak.
03-31-2010, 01:36 PM
#40
Race Car
Bruce, I'm lost? So the filter gives you peak numbers but you say that, that is not important in the "overall package" which I agree.
So........what is the point????
Is it just for individualism?
So........what is the point????
Is it just for individualism?
03-31-2010, 01:41 PM
#41
Race Car
BTW, you cannot get a peak in HP #'s without having a gain in torque, this is an impossibility.
Fact: torque is measured by a dyno, HP is calculated from torque measured.
Fact: torque is measured by a dyno, HP is calculated from torque measured.
03-31-2010, 04:08 PM
#42
Drifting
raising the rpm while keeping the torque flat will increase the horsepower, this most likely won't happen as peak torque usually occurs at a much lower rpm and after it peaks will fall.
03-31-2010, 04:28 PM
#43
Race Car
To raise you RPM requires extending the torque to a higher RPM.
So, even though torque appears to be dwindling, it is the multiplier of RPM raising HP.
For instance, F1 engines make what, 1500hp? They still make gobs of torque, just at a really high RPM. I believe I read something like 800ft lbs. Not sure of time frame I read this.
It is all relative. HP comes simply calculated from torque.
03-31-2010, 04:35 PM
#44
Drifting
Flat torque is a metaphor. You cannot raise hp without raising torque, hp is calculated from torque.
To raise you RPM requires extending the torque to a higher RPM.
So, even though torque appears to be dwindling, it is the multiplier of RPM raising HP.
For instance, F1 engines make what, 1500hp? They still make gobs of torque, just at a really high RPM. I believe I read something like 800ft lbs. Not sure of time frame I read this.
It is all relative. HP comes simply calculated from torque.
To raise you RPM requires extending the torque to a higher RPM.
So, even though torque appears to be dwindling, it is the multiplier of RPM raising HP.
For instance, F1 engines make what, 1500hp? They still make gobs of torque, just at a really high RPM. I believe I read something like 800ft lbs. Not sure of time frame I read this.
It is all relative. HP comes simply calculated from torque.
03-31-2010, 05:47 PM
#45
As for what the point is, I can only answer for myself: I enjoy the way the car drives with my EVOMS intake, when combined with exhaust and flash. The sound makes the car more involving to drive, and it feels quicker above 4500 rpm. I can't actually a) Parse out what contribution the CAI makes to that, or b) Tell you whether it is, in fact, quicker. That was kind of my point with the long-winded post from yesterday... tuning is about personalizing.