IMS retrofit problem
02-26-2010, 02:13 PM
#16
Yah pin the crank at TDC then with the cam plugs off lock them in with the special tools. Something lke that 
. It should be easier with the info sent you. Maybe Jake will make some special tools for locking the cams into postion through the cam plugs and also cam holders for when the valve covers are off
. It should be easier with the info sent you. Maybe Jake will make some special tools for locking the cams into postion through the cam plugs and also cam holders for when the valve covers are off
02-26-2010, 04:15 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Ok, so help the guy out. Becasue so far all I see in your below quote is blah blah blah blah, I dont see any help.... I think his questions are:
1. Am I fooked?
2. can I pull the tensioners and get the flang back on and be ok?
3. If I can wrestle the flange back on, will I be ok?
4. So if I am fooked, whats going to fix my **** up?
1. Am I fooked?
2. can I pull the tensioners and get the flang back on and be ok?
3. If I can wrestle the flange back on, will I be ok?
4. So if I am fooked, whats going to fix my **** up?
No, you guys have it all wrong!!
I WANT to support this procedure and ensure it is done correctly, which is why I just finished shooting a very extensive DVD on the topic.
On this forum there has only been one other person do this work and post about it and that was Kyle and he did a great job, but at the present time there is not enough knowledge and experience on a board like this to support a procedure as critical as this. One day their will be, but not yet. There is nothing worse for a critical install like this than mis-information and thats what I am trying to avoid.
I wasn't getting hasty, I wanted him to understand that before he goes any further and damages something he should gain support from us or from LN.
I do get irritated when people make mistakes that could be avoided, but with this procedure there is no "stupid question" and I answer all of them with enthusiasm because I WANT to help and we must make every bearing install a success.
FYI- We sold a bearing to someone with the same location a couple of weeks ago and he used the same soloporsche forums, so thats why I assumed that he was the purchaser of that bearing, but I was not and still am not sure.
I do receive calls from those who purchased the bearing directly from LN, and LN tells every customer that they do not offer extensive support, they refer those who want/ need extensive support directly to us as we helped develop the procedure and have done more than any other facility.
I'll help anyone, as long as they don't demand it- no matter where it was purchased from..
I can't stress enough how much procedure is important during this retrofit, Kyle knows that but even he had some questions that I helped him with.. Most everyone does and should, at least until the DVD is finally edited.
Goof this up and you can waste an engine, thats just the cold, hard facts and they must be stated bluntly to be taken seriously.
I WANT to support this procedure and ensure it is done correctly, which is why I just finished shooting a very extensive DVD on the topic.
On this forum there has only been one other person do this work and post about it and that was Kyle and he did a great job, but at the present time there is not enough knowledge and experience on a board like this to support a procedure as critical as this. One day their will be, but not yet. There is nothing worse for a critical install like this than mis-information and thats what I am trying to avoid.
I wasn't getting hasty, I wanted him to understand that before he goes any further and damages something he should gain support from us or from LN.
I do get irritated when people make mistakes that could be avoided, but with this procedure there is no "stupid question" and I answer all of them with enthusiasm because I WANT to help and we must make every bearing install a success.
FYI- We sold a bearing to someone with the same location a couple of weeks ago and he used the same soloporsche forums, so thats why I assumed that he was the purchaser of that bearing, but I was not and still am not sure.
I do receive calls from those who purchased the bearing directly from LN, and LN tells every customer that they do not offer extensive support, they refer those who want/ need extensive support directly to us as we helped develop the procedure and have done more than any other facility.
I'll help anyone, as long as they don't demand it- no matter where it was purchased from..
I can't stress enough how much procedure is important during this retrofit, Kyle knows that but even he had some questions that I helped him with.. Most everyone does and should, at least until the DVD is finally edited.
Goof this up and you can waste an engine, thats just the cold, hard facts and they must be stated bluntly to be taken seriously.
02-26-2010, 04:32 PM
#20
I think Jake addressed all those questions pretty clearly in this post.
Someone obviously did not pay attention and got hasty.
This is SERIOUS BUSINESS and now you have created more work and complication for yourself. If that bearing came from my company, call 706.219.4874 and provide us with the bearing serial number. I will then (personally) provide added support if we sold you the bearing.
If the bearing came directly from LN, call Charles and he will provide some support. We support only what we sell and what is serialized.
The bearing you have is a single row, what bearing did you order?
The FIRST thing that is done is the engine is locked at TDC #1, the second thing that is to be done is removal of the tensioners.
If this is not done correctly the job just became a lot more difficult and special tools will be necessary to reset the camshaft timing. At this point the cam timing has already been compromised, re-installiing the flange will not be possible and even if it were the valve timing is already in question.
If this bearing did come from us, I will be not very happy that it was posted here before we received a support email/ phone call.
This isn't a hard job at all, it does require procedure.
This is SERIOUS BUSINESS and now you have created more work and complication for yourself. If that bearing came from my company, call 706.219.4874 and provide us with the bearing serial number. I will then (personally) provide added support if we sold you the bearing.
If the bearing came directly from LN, call Charles and he will provide some support. We support only what we sell and what is serialized.
The bearing you have is a single row, what bearing did you order?
The FIRST thing that is done is the engine is locked at TDC #1, the second thing that is to be done is removal of the tensioners.
If this is not done correctly the job just became a lot more difficult and special tools will be necessary to reset the camshaft timing. At this point the cam timing has already been compromised, re-installiing the flange will not be possible and even if it were the valve timing is already in question.
If this bearing did come from us, I will be not very happy that it was posted here before we received a support email/ phone call.
This isn't a hard job at all, it does require procedure.
02-26-2010, 04:55 PM
#21
I do receive calls from those who purchased the bearing directly from LN, and LN tells every customer that they do not offer extensive support, they refer those who want/ need extensive support directly to us as we helped develop the procedure and have done more than any other facility.
02-26-2010, 04:59 PM
#22
Racer
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Jake,
I did the IMS bearing upgrade in December (https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ance-105k.html). It's not a hard task, the puller works great, the directions from LN are easy to follow.
Rick
99 996C4
87 944S
02-26-2010, 05:59 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
The only time he'd be fooked is if the engine was ran with the cam timing incorrect.. Everything to that point is just a complication to have to overcome with more procedures and special timing tools.
Kyle, his experience could be as straight forward as yours, but with the IMS displaced in the bore and the tensioners still in place; coupled to the engine being "on lobe" not pinned at TDC things became more difficult.
The M96 has cylinders #1 and #4 in opposition. Both are at TDC at the same crank position, but one is at true TDC while the other is at TDC overlap (between the exhaust and intake strokes). The engine is designed in a way that when its at TDC all the cam lobes are placing no load on their drive chains. This is why its so important to be at this position when the IMS bearing flange is pulled as this is the only position where all the load is removed from the bearing/flange.
This is why we have done the DVD, and it really is a damn good directive.
Kyle, his experience could be as straight forward as yours, but with the IMS displaced in the bore and the tensioners still in place; coupled to the engine being "on lobe" not pinned at TDC things became more difficult.
The M96 has cylinders #1 and #4 in opposition. Both are at TDC at the same crank position, but one is at true TDC while the other is at TDC overlap (between the exhaust and intake strokes). The engine is designed in a way that when its at TDC all the cam lobes are placing no load on their drive chains. This is why its so important to be at this position when the IMS bearing flange is pulled as this is the only position where all the load is removed from the bearing/flange.
This is why we have done the DVD, and it really is a damn good directive.
02-26-2010, 06:12 PM
#24
Drifting
My perspective on whether his chains have slipped and effected the cam timing. Yes you are supposed to set the engine at TDC and take out the tensioners. But the most important aspect of dong this is to take tension off the IMS so it does not offset in the whole like his is now. For the chains to slip with the tensioners in is less likely than with them out. With tension of the paddles that moves with the tensioners (both the the IMS to Crank and the IMS to cams on bank 1-3) and the other chain guides in place there really isn't alot of slack in the chains, so they are unlikely to "Jump a Tooth." It is when the tensioners are removed that there is enough slack in the chains that the timing might change.
The challenge for this owner is that the tensioners now have to be removed to take the tension of the IMS so it can be centered to get the bearing on, and the engine is not locked at TDC, so there might be more tension on the chains, particularly the chain to the cams on 1-3.
My advice would be to very slowly and gently take the tensioners for the IMS to Crank and the IMS to 1-3 out so that this end of the IMS can move slightly. Then reinstall the original cap/flange. Reinstall the tensioners, move the engine to TDC for the 1-3 head, pop out the green cam cover plugs (at least the intake one on the trans end and the exhaust one on the rear), you need to the intake one out to confirm that the engine is at TDC for 1-3 and the exhaust cap to see if the cam is straight up and down with the narrow part of the slotted end out. Remember that with the tensioners not pressurized with oil the cam may appear to be slight off.
If everything looks OK then follow the standard procedure to change the bearing, just being careful not to jump a tooth on the sprockets. I would also probably check/set the timing with a tool. This will also be required if the timing appears to have been effected.
Goodl Luck!
The challenge for this owner is that the tensioners now have to be removed to take the tension of the IMS so it can be centered to get the bearing on, and the engine is not locked at TDC, so there might be more tension on the chains, particularly the chain to the cams on 1-3.
My advice would be to very slowly and gently take the tensioners for the IMS to Crank and the IMS to 1-3 out so that this end of the IMS can move slightly. Then reinstall the original cap/flange. Reinstall the tensioners, move the engine to TDC for the 1-3 head, pop out the green cam cover plugs (at least the intake one on the trans end and the exhaust one on the rear), you need to the intake one out to confirm that the engine is at TDC for 1-3 and the exhaust cap to see if the cam is straight up and down with the narrow part of the slotted end out. Remember that with the tensioners not pressurized with oil the cam may appear to be slight off.
If everything looks OK then follow the standard procedure to change the bearing, just being careful not to jump a tooth on the sprockets. I would also probably check/set the timing with a tool. This will also be required if the timing appears to have been effected.
Goodl Luck!
02-26-2010, 06:36 PM
#25
Track Day
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Wow wow wow...
First of all thanks for all the help.
An now, let me clarify some points.
- Yes I did it wrong. It's my fault. I only wanted to be sure to order the right bearing.
-Of course I already order(tuesday) the bearing from LN (invoice number 4412)if it wasn't true I wouldn't mention it at all.
-I think that forums like this, basecally are made to share information and help each other. And this is what I try to do. Sharing my "stupidity" in order to help someone else in the next future.
Now, if it is possible and someone can help me out I would appreciate very much. My engine is out of the car so it is easy to work with it. The problem is that I'm not familiar with porsche's engines but I'm use to work with audis and vw.
I hope you can give me some steps to follow. Thanks in advance,
Carles
-
First of all thanks for all the help.
An now, let me clarify some points.
- Yes I did it wrong. It's my fault. I only wanted to be sure to order the right bearing.
-Of course I already order(tuesday) the bearing from LN (invoice number 4412)if it wasn't true I wouldn't mention it at all.
-I think that forums like this, basecally are made to share information and help each other. And this is what I try to do. Sharing my "stupidity" in order to help someone else in the next future.
Now, if it is possible and someone can help me out I would appreciate very much. My engine is out of the car so it is easy to work with it. The problem is that I'm not familiar with porsche's engines but I'm use to work with audis and vw.
I hope you can give me some steps to follow. Thanks in advance,
Carles
-
02-26-2010, 06:46 PM
#27
Track Day
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02-27-2010, 01:16 PM
#28
Dharn 55-
Why are you (and Macster) the "voice of reason"? Could it be that you know what you're talking about, and you truly want to help people instead of screaming "the sky is falling"?
(After reading some of the other posts, I have to go out and drive my car to feel good again that my car is not made out of china)
Thanks for being here!
Why are you (and Macster) the "voice of reason"? Could it be that you know what you're talking about, and you truly want to help people instead of screaming "the sky is falling"?
(After reading some of the other posts, I have to go out and drive my car to feel good again that my car is not made out of china)
Thanks for being here!
02-27-2010, 03:05 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
Dharn 55-
Why are you (and Macster) the "voice of reason"? Could it be that you know what you're talking about, and you truly want to help people instead of screaming "the sky is falling"?
(After reading some of the other posts, I have to go out and drive my car to feel good again that my car is not made out of china)
Thanks for being here!
Why are you (and Macster) the "voice of reason"? Could it be that you know what you're talking about, and you truly want to help people instead of screaming "the sky is falling"?
(After reading some of the other posts, I have to go out and drive my car to feel good again that my car is not made out of china)
Thanks for being here!
I asked the guy in public who he is and where his knowledge was gained. He has yet to answer, so I guess he will just go on being our masked man.
02-27-2010, 03:28 PM
#30
I said it before and I'll say it again. These guys knowledge and WILLING TO SHARE is unreal and an assit to this board. Macster answers are always well thought out an explained in a fantastc manner.
I asked the guy in public who he is and where his knowledge was gained. He has yet to answer, so I guess he will just go on being our masked man.
I asked the guy in public who he is and where his knowledge was gained. He has yet to answer, so I guess he will just go on being our masked man.
Rumor has it that Macster is actually an android, and not allowed to discuss his "status".
Apparently the Porsche factory built and maintains him to further the Porsche cause.
Just don't bring up VW in his presents. Not sure, but this could be a trigger in his programing.
Phil