Engine back in the car, but won't start!!!
06-30-2009, 01:45 PM
#16
Dharn,
I did the same thing to clutch hydraulic line, ~$85 @Suncoast.
Been watching your thread. Good luck.
My car almost caught on fire last friday, The wire to the starter shorted to the A/C compressor, Be careful with the routing there. It is hard not to touch the compressor the way it comes from that block it is mounted to. Does anyone else's +12 volt starter wire lay on the compresssor?
I did the same thing to clutch hydraulic line, ~$85 @Suncoast.
Been watching your thread. Good luck.
My car almost caught on fire last friday, The wire to the starter shorted to the A/C compressor, Be careful with the routing there. It is hard not to touch the compressor the way it comes from that block it is mounted to. Does anyone else's +12 volt starter wire lay on the compresssor?
06-30-2009, 03:27 PM
#17
Drifting
Thread Starter
Here is the type of plug that will be used in the ends of the cams. The insert hex socket will not protrude out of the end of the cam and will allow for a holder to still be used to hold the cams in place during reassembly.
06-30-2009, 04:29 PM
#18
Race Car
Is that what Porsche wont sell you?
06-30-2009, 05:37 PM
#20
Drifting
Thread Starter
Porsche won't sell the freeze plug, don't even have it in the PET program. Jeff at Sunset Porsche has been trying to get an answer from Porsche on why this can't be purchased for 102 weeks now. No response. There are lots of expansion/freeze plugs available from many sources, but none that will fit, believe me I have been trying to find one for weeks. they are all to deep. There is a shoulder where the diameter of the hole in the cam gets smaller which is only amout .2 -.25 inches deep. As the plugs get narrower at the bottom, you must get the top (open end) all the way into the hole. All the domestically available expansion plugs are .25" or more deep, so the widest part is not in the hole far enough to hold. I tried one and it blew out, even with some JB Weld to help hold it.
Now the good news, the machine shop just called me and the first cam is done, the cost was only $50 to drill, thread and put in a hex plug in both ends. Each additional cam will be $35. I am going to take the other three cams out of the car and take them to the machine shop. At this price, another $105 will be the best insurance I can get that I will never have a plug blow out. The question is my mind is why Porsche did not do this to begin. It has been explained to me that this would no be a "robotic assembly" and Porsche only wants to use robots to just press in the plugs, cheaper and quicker. But look at how much we all pay for our cars. Porsche could have done this for less than $100 per car easily and they would never have hjad a plug blow out.
Now the good news, the machine shop just called me and the first cam is done, the cost was only $50 to drill, thread and put in a hex plug in both ends. Each additional cam will be $35. I am going to take the other three cams out of the car and take them to the machine shop. At this price, another $105 will be the best insurance I can get that I will never have a plug blow out. The question is my mind is why Porsche did not do this to begin. It has been explained to me that this would no be a "robotic assembly" and Porsche only wants to use robots to just press in the plugs, cheaper and quicker. But look at how much we all pay for our cars. Porsche could have done this for less than $100 per car easily and they would never have hjad a plug blow out.
06-30-2009, 06:09 PM
#21
Drifting
I'm convinced that Porsche sub'd the water cooled design out and got help from the Japanese on how to do it cheaply and repeatably. The two bad things are 1: yes, Porsche got what they paid for on this engineering debacle and 2: the same crappy design gets 100% repeated when every engine is produced - sad. The real bad part is that an engine that does NOT blow is one that slipped by the quality control and was shoddily assembled and in doing so, stayed together. I think that's the part that Porsche does not want us to know. My guess is that the new 4-door will do them in. Don;t get me wrong - I love the marque, but they whored their engineering credibility and reputation when they let the B-team design this engine.
The are going to be eaten alive by VW soon...
The are going to be eaten alive by VW soon...Porsche won't sell the freeze plug, don't even have it in the PET program. Jeff at Sunset Porsche has been trying to get an answer from Porsche on why this can't be purchased for 102 weeks now. No response. There are lots of expansion/freeze plugs available from many sources, but none that will fit, believe me I have been trying to find one for weeks. they are all to deep. There is a shoulder where the diameter of the hole in the cam gets smaller which is only amout .2 -.25 inches deep. As the plugs get narrower at the bottom, you must get the top (open end) all the way into the hole. All the domestically available expansion plugs are .25" or more deep, so the widest part is not in the hole far enough to hold. I tried one and it blew out, even with some JB Weld to help hold it.
Now the good news, the machine shop just called me and the first cam is done, the cost was only $50 to drill, thread and put in a hex plug in both ends. Each additional cam will be $35. I am going to take the other three cams out of the car and take them to the machine shop. At this price, another $105 will be the best insurance I can get that I will never have a plug blow out. The question is my mind is why Porsche did not do this to begin. It has been explained to me that this would no be a "robotic assembly" and Porsche only wants to use robots to just press in the plugs, cheaper and quicker. But look at how much we all pay for our cars. Porsche could have done this for less than $100 per car easily and they would never have hjad a plug blow out.
Now the good news, the machine shop just called me and the first cam is done, the cost was only $50 to drill, thread and put in a hex plug in both ends. Each additional cam will be $35. I am going to take the other three cams out of the car and take them to the machine shop. At this price, another $105 will be the best insurance I can get that I will never have a plug blow out. The question is my mind is why Porsche did not do this to begin. It has been explained to me that this would no be a "robotic assembly" and Porsche only wants to use robots to just press in the plugs, cheaper and quicker. But look at how much we all pay for our cars. Porsche could have done this for less than $100 per car easily and they would never have hjad a plug blow out.
07-01-2009, 01:18 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
07-01-2009, 10:39 AM
#23
Burning Brakes
These plugs should have been threaded in place just like ALL the expansion plugs within the engine.. This is what we do with every engine that we upgrade.
The machine shop doing this work is doing it at a cost that is well below what I'd ever do it for, considering the risk associated with the procedure and the fact that I have destroyed cams when doing this. The material the cams are made of is very brittle and doesn't like to be tapped very well. Glad to see you found someone to do this so cost effectively.
EVERYTHING that haunts these engines comes from economics.. They are not design flaws.. NOTHING we have solved took more than common sense and the required outlay of funds to accomplish.
The challenges I have faced when upgrading other Porsche engines have taken longer, cost more and been more of a pain in the *** than the M96.
The machine shop doing this work is doing it at a cost that is well below what I'd ever do it for, considering the risk associated with the procedure and the fact that I have destroyed cams when doing this. The material the cams are made of is very brittle and doesn't like to be tapped very well. Glad to see you found someone to do this so cost effectively.
EVERYTHING that haunts these engines comes from economics.. They are not design flaws.. NOTHING we have solved took more than common sense and the required outlay of funds to accomplish.
The challenges I have faced when upgrading other Porsche engines have taken longer, cost more and been more of a pain in the *** than the M96.
07-01-2009, 01:06 PM
#25
Drifting
Hey Jake - dumb question: by virtue of its name: "expansion plug", which I believe was desgined to 'pop out' under certain extreme conditions such as block freeze, etc. in order to sacrafice the plug to spare the block. So is it safe to assume that the cam plugs in question are not designed to 'pop out' under a specific extreme condition to 'spare the head'???
These plugs should have been threaded in place just like ALL the expansion plugs within the engine.. This is what we do with every engine that we upgrade.
The machine shop doing this work is doing it at a cost that is well below what I'd ever do it for, considering the risk associated with the procedure and the fact that I have destroyed cams when doing this. The material the cams are made of is very brittle and doesn't like to be tapped very well. Glad to see you found someone to do this so cost effectively.
EVERYTHING that haunts these engines comes from economics.. They are not design flaws.. NOTHING we have solved took more than common sense and the required outlay of funds to accomplish.
The challenges I have faced when upgrading other Porsche engines have taken longer, cost more and been more of a pain in the *** than the M96.
The machine shop doing this work is doing it at a cost that is well below what I'd ever do it for, considering the risk associated with the procedure and the fact that I have destroyed cams when doing this. The material the cams are made of is very brittle and doesn't like to be tapped very well. Glad to see you found someone to do this so cost effectively.
EVERYTHING that haunts these engines comes from economics.. They are not design flaws.. NOTHING we have solved took more than common sense and the required outlay of funds to accomplish.
The challenges I have faced when upgrading other Porsche engines have taken longer, cost more and been more of a pain in the *** than the M96.
07-01-2009, 03:29 PM
#26
Three Wheelin'
07-01-2009, 04:56 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
Yes I am on vacation.. My life revolves around engines.
These"expansion plugs" are used throughout the engine, even where there is no risk of expansion because they are cheap and can be installed in seconds via human hands or robotic technology.
Its all about cheaper and faster... Except under my roof- we don't even have a clock in the entire facility.
These"expansion plugs" are used throughout the engine, even where there is no risk of expansion because they are cheap and can be installed in seconds via human hands or robotic technology.
Its all about cheaper and faster... Except under my roof- we don't even have a clock in the entire facility.
07-01-2009, 05:07 PM
#28
Drifting
Your racisim NO 
- Here's what Wicki says about racisim: Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.[1] In the case of institutional racism, certain racial groups may be denied rights or benefits, or get preferential treatment, while reverse racism favours members of a historically disadvantaged group at the expense of those of a historically advantaged group. Racial discrimination typically points out taxonomic differences between different groups of people, even though anybody can be racialised, independently of their somatic differences. According to the United Nations conventions, there is no distinction between the term racial discrimination and ethnic discrimination.
07-01-2009, 06:40 PM
#29
Drifting
Thread Starter
In theory "expansion plugs" in cooling systems were designed to pop out if the coolant froze so that the block or head would not crack. Some basis for this. In the case of oil passages I don't believe the same rationale applies. However, in casting heads/blocks they need certain openings for both cooling areas and oil carrying areas, and it is cheap to use expansion plugs. In the case of the camshafts, they are hollow to carry oil to each of the journals. I think they are made solid, and then drilled/machined out. Then each end is plugged with an expansion plug. In the case of oil passages, if the plugs pop out you will loose all the oil and oil pressure very quickly, the "intermix" would be the least of your problems. In the case of the cams, when the plugs blow out, in turn the caps on the end of the heads blow out and oil is spewing all over, particular hot oil on top of the exhaust system. This can quickly cause a fire. And if you are running at speed on the highway, if you don't have a fire you will quickly be running dry (no oil) before you even realize you had a problem. If you don't shut the engine down in a few seconds the engine would be toast, and at speed who would think to do this, you would be trying to get to the side of the road, etc.
It is just a cheap manufaturing technique that can lead to catastrophic failure. I got the cams back today and will post some photos showing before (plugs) and after (threaded plugs).
It is just a cheap manufaturing technique that can lead to catastrophic failure. I got the cams back today and will post some photos showing before (plugs) and after (threaded plugs).
Last edited by Dharn55; 07-01-2009 at 08:31 PM. Reason: typos
07-01-2009, 07:33 PM
#30
Burning Brakes
These plugs are all through the engine.. In the block, in the heads and in the cams... Even in the damn IMS!!!
They should be replaced whenever service is done near the components that have them...
They should be replaced whenever service is done near the components that have them...