Talk me out of it.. Considering trade for M3
09-07-2008, 03:18 PM
#91
Drifting
Awe. Not arguing. I'd take any 2002+ 996 over any 2001+ E46 M3 given similar miles/condition.
The new M3, well that's a whole different beast. Having owned several Porches and now an brand new M, I am thoroughly convinced that for about $25k less, you get all the performance/sports car feel of a 997 plus SO much more.
This seems to be the general concensus from owners of both or those that have moved from 997 to new M3. Road tests and reviews and numbers also support this. ONE thing you give up from M3 to 997 is steering feel. That's one thing I like better about the Porsche. However it's acquired, cause once you get used to the feel of the M3's steering and REALLY push the car, it's just as good. Also, 150 in the M feels MORE stable than 150mph in my TT. 150 in my tt was jittery and scary, whereas the same speed was planted and stuck to the road. Amazing ****ing car!!!
I recommend EVERY person who has $60k to spend on a sports car to give it a REALLY hard test drive, then go test a 997S.
The new M3, well that's a whole different beast. Having owned several Porches and now an brand new M, I am thoroughly convinced that for about $25k less, you get all the performance/sports car feel of a 997 plus SO much more.
This seems to be the general concensus from owners of both or those that have moved from 997 to new M3. Road tests and reviews and numbers also support this. ONE thing you give up from M3 to 997 is steering feel. That's one thing I like better about the Porsche. However it's acquired, cause once you get used to the feel of the M3's steering and REALLY push the car, it's just as good. Also, 150 in the M feels MORE stable than 150mph in my TT. 150 in my tt was jittery and scary, whereas the same speed was planted and stuck to the road. Amazing ****ing car!!!
I recommend EVERY person who has $60k to spend on a sports car to give it a REALLY hard test drive, then go test a 997S.
09-07-2008, 03:50 PM
#92
Three Wheelin'
Awe. Not arguing. I'd take any 2002+ 996 over any 2001+ E46 M3 given similar miles/condition.
The new M3, well that's a whole different beast. Having owned several Porches and now an brand new M, I am thoroughly convinced that for about $25k less, you get all the performance/sports car feel of a 997 plus SO much more.
The new M3, well that's a whole different beast. Having owned several Porches and now an brand new M, I am thoroughly convinced that for about $25k less, you get all the performance/sports car feel of a 997 plus SO much more.
This seems to be the general concensus from owners of both or those that have moved from 997 to new M3. Road tests and reviews and numbers also support this. ONE thing you give up from M3 to 997 is steering feel. That's one thing I like better about the Porsche. However it's acquired, cause once you get used to the feel of the M3's steering and REALLY push the car, it's just as good.
the M3 is and will always be reserved for people wanting a back seat and a usable trunk. Lots of others who have pcars also have a daily driver for practicality cause the pcars aren't always that practical for ride comfort and cargo capacity \
also... the motortrend article should have used the 997S instead of the turbo because it is well known that the 997S handles better than the turbo due to less weight and RWD handling (the R8 is the exception here with its AWD system and they did a great job with it case closed...)
09-07-2008, 04:03 PM
#93
Drifting
To each his own. I recommend people drive both and decide. To me the M feels more stable and planted than the 997. Again, M has better numbers on both Cornering and slalom than the 997S. I can't wait to see these two cars go head to head with professional drivers on a closed track.
09-07-2008, 04:14 PM
#94
Three Wheelin'
this is the video I was talking about....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yjynxaLDJ0
fast forward to about 2:30 and see what the race car driver's comments are.....
I hope they make a firmer suspension or a CSL version of that M3... with about 400 lbs less weight and maybe they can configure it with
electronic dampers for a race mode and street mode... that would be the perfect car...
the only problem with electronic dampers is you can't change the spring rates so the electronic dampers still have to work within the narrow range of the fixed spring rates... if suspension engineers can somehow figure out how to change spring rates then you've solved all your problems for comfort and track handling...
the new M3 is a great car... and if you had to have one car... that would be it cause I couldn't believe how comfy it is and it comes with good seats that will be usable at the track... but for that ultimate handling and lapping days at DE events... based on the research I've done and my personal hour long test drive with the new M3.. IMHO... I still don't buy its better than the current 997S...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yjynxaLDJ0
fast forward to about 2:30 and see what the race car driver's comments are.....
I hope they make a firmer suspension or a CSL version of that M3... with about 400 lbs less weight and maybe they can configure it with
electronic dampers for a race mode and street mode... that would be the perfect car...
the only problem with electronic dampers is you can't change the spring rates so the electronic dampers still have to work within the narrow range of the fixed spring rates... if suspension engineers can somehow figure out how to change spring rates then you've solved all your problems for comfort and track handling...
the new M3 is a great car... and if you had to have one car... that would be it cause I couldn't believe how comfy it is and it comes with good seats that will be usable at the track... but for that ultimate handling and lapping days at DE events... based on the research I've done and my personal hour long test drive with the new M3.. IMHO... I still don't buy its better than the current 997S...
09-07-2008, 04:16 PM
#95
Porsche Nut
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
mmm... no you don't... the 997s feels way better to drive than an M3 V8... the new M3 is a great car but feels sedated by comparison....
... steering feel isn't as good... its the first thing you notice about the new M3... poorly designed.. the E46 steering feel is much better... but having driven the M3 V8.. I can say that there is a lot of other qualities that make up for that shortcoming...
... sounds like your TT needs a street alignment... when you do a track alignment you sacrificice a bit of strait line stability for cornering and transitioning ability which is what you need on the track... the M3 feels more stable because it is very quiet and uses soft dampers (vs the porsche's PASM firm mode)... which I kind of liked for long distance touring and cruising the city... (even on bad roads... where you really feel it in the pcar...)
agreed... but on the track you will not be happy with the new M3 V8... there was a video on you tube that I will post that highlighted the shortcomings of the M3 V8 on the track...(stay tuned for that one - I'll look for it and post it...) even in M mode there seems to be some portliness on the new M3... although M mode is what you want on the track cause it transforms the car I'll say this much ... the E46 ZCP M3 was a much more capable track car than the new M3... (given shorter tracks with more corners and less straightaways ) but I still like the new M3 for what it is... if you want to track first and have a daily secon...stay with 997 S...
the M3 is and will always be reserved for people wanting a back seat and a usable trunk. Lots of others who have pcars also have a daily driver for practicality cause the pcars aren't always that practical for ride comfort and cargo capacity \
also... the motortrend article should have used the 997S instead of the turbo because it is well known that the 997S handles better than the turbo due to less weight and RWD handling (the R8 is the exception here with its AWD system and they did a great job with it case closed...)
... steering feel isn't as good... its the first thing you notice about the new M3... poorly designed.. the E46 steering feel is much better... but having driven the M3 V8.. I can say that there is a lot of other qualities that make up for that shortcoming...
... sounds like your TT needs a street alignment... when you do a track alignment you sacrificice a bit of strait line stability for cornering and transitioning ability which is what you need on the track... the M3 feels more stable because it is very quiet and uses soft dampers (vs the porsche's PASM firm mode)... which I kind of liked for long distance touring and cruising the city... (even on bad roads... where you really feel it in the pcar...)
agreed... but on the track you will not be happy with the new M3 V8... there was a video on you tube that I will post that highlighted the shortcomings of the M3 V8 on the track...(stay tuned for that one - I'll look for it and post it...) even in M mode there seems to be some portliness on the new M3... although M mode is what you want on the track cause it transforms the car I'll say this much ... the E46 ZCP M3 was a much more capable track car than the new M3... (given shorter tracks with more corners and less straightaways ) but I still like the new M3 for what it is... if you want to track first and have a daily secon...stay with 997 S...
the M3 is and will always be reserved for people wanting a back seat and a usable trunk. Lots of others who have pcars also have a daily driver for practicality cause the pcars aren't always that practical for ride comfort and cargo capacity \
also... the motortrend article should have used the 997S instead of the turbo because it is well known that the 997S handles better than the turbo due to less weight and RWD handling (the R8 is the exception here with its AWD system and they did a great job with it case closed...)
Last edited by Charlie C; 09-07-2008 at 06:57 PM. Reason: spelling
09-07-2008, 04:37 PM
#96
Drifting
Hey. If after extensively driving the 997S and M3 back to back I had thought the 997S was the better performing car,l I would have bought it. We can sit here and compare reviews all day long. I have plenty that pick the M3 over the 997S, C63 AMG and even a few that pick the M over the 911TT and GT-R.
Don't forget, I sold my Turbo to buy the M. The M gave me everything the Turbo did plus more, minus the speed/boost. I think for $25 to $30k less, the M3 is a far BETTER car than the 997S.
Some may drive both and like the 997S more, for me it was an easy decision. To each their own. Both are great cars obviously, but for me the a brand new M was an easy choice over a 2005 Carrera S for about the same price.
I can't wait to see the 997 and M3 go at it head to head on the track. We'll just have to stay tuned and see.
Don't forget, I sold my Turbo to buy the M. The M gave me everything the Turbo did plus more, minus the speed/boost. I think for $25 to $30k less, the M3 is a far BETTER car than the 997S.
Some may drive both and like the 997S more, for me it was an easy decision. To each their own. Both are great cars obviously, but for me the a brand new M was an easy choice over a 2005 Carrera S for about the same price.
I can't wait to see the 997 and M3 go at it head to head on the track. We'll just have to stay tuned and see.
09-07-2008, 04:41 PM
#97
Drifting
But I DO find it hillarious that people who have never even DRIVEN the new M3 weigh in with a strong opinion. I don't even think a test drive on city or highway roads should count. Untill you've REALLY driven both HARD I don't see how you can weight in, that is if we're comparing them for track worthiness/handling at the limit.
09-07-2008, 04:49 PM
#98
Three Wheelin'
09-07-2008, 04:57 PM
#99
Nordschleife Master
09-07-2008, 05:21 PM
#100
Three Wheelin'
Hey. If after extensively driving the 997S and M3 back to back I had thought the 997S was the better performing car,l I would have bought it. We can sit here and compare reviews all day long. I have plenty that pick the M3 over the 997S, C63 AMG and even a few that pick the M over the 911TT and GT-R.
Don't forget, I sold my Turbo to buy the M. The M gave me everything the Turbo did plus more, minus the speed/boost. I think for $25 to $30k less, the M3 is a far BETTER car than the 997S.
Some may drive both and like the 997S more, for me it was an easy decision. To each their own. Both are great cars obviously, but for me the a brand new M was an easy choice over a 2005 Carrera S for about the same price.
I can't wait to see the 997 and M3 go at it head to head on the track. We'll just have to stay tuned and see.
Don't forget, I sold my Turbo to buy the M. The M gave me everything the Turbo did plus more, minus the speed/boost. I think for $25 to $30k less, the M3 is a far BETTER car than the 997S.
Some may drive both and like the 997S more, for me it was an easy decision. To each their own. Both are great cars obviously, but for me the a brand new M was an easy choice over a 2005 Carrera S for about the same price.
I can't wait to see the 997 and M3 go at it head to head on the track. We'll just have to stay tuned and see.
we did extensively drive the M3... myself a pcar driver and my friend an E46 ZCP owner and circuit race car driver... we both came to the same conclusions...
I don't care what biased magazines have to say who advertise products for companies they are reviewing
your turbo didn't impress me either... but after watching that video of a PROFESSIONAL Le mans race car driver commenting on all the things the M3 DOESN'T do at the track that the 997s DOES DO... if you still wanna believe your car is better then so be it... I do a lot of tracking many things in that video hit home... looks to me like the M3 is lacking in the track department.... is it WAY better... no... its $25 k less you get $25 K less car... its a linear comparison in my mind where performance is concerned... don't even get me started about what the new 997S will do to an M3... of course when BMW engineers work out the bugs in their DCT transmission we may have another reason to compare and the results will be the same...
sounds to me like you prefer the trunk space, back seat , cushy ride and utility... which are the top reasons why people buy an M3 over 911 and lets not start talking bout other cars here... the debate was 997 S vs E92 M3.
09-07-2008, 05:22 PM
#101
Drifting
Yup. I agree with you guys. No way we'll change each others minds. However, for those of you who have NOT driven the NEW M3, I recommend checking it out. That means YOU Oreganet, old friend!! 
Good luck to the OP on his decision. Either way, I don't think you can go wrong. If I were you, I would look at some nice 2002-2003 Carrera's, too. Hell, i'd look at '05 Boxster S's too. If they're in your ballpark.
Good luck to the OP on his decision. Either way, I don't think you can go wrong. If I were you, I would look at some nice 2002-2003 Carrera's, too. Hell, i'd look at '05 Boxster S's too. If they're in your ballpark.
09-07-2008, 05:25 PM
#102
Drifting
one last kick at the can here...
we did extensively drive the M3... myself a pcar driver and my friend an E46 ZCP owner and circuit race car driver... we both came to the same conclusions...
I don't care what biased magazines have to say who advertise products for companies they are reviewing
your turbo didn't impress me either... but after watching that video of a PROFESSIONAL Le mans race car driver commenting on all the things the M3 DOESN'T do at the track that the 997s DOES DO... if you still wanna believe your car is better then so be it... I do a lot of tracking many things in that video hit home... looks to me like the M3 is lacking in the track department.... is it WAY better... no... its $25 k less you get $25 K less car... its a linear comparison in my mind where performance is concerned... don't even get me started about what the new 997S will do to an M3... of course when BMW engineers work out the bugs in their DCT transmission we may have another reason to compare and the results will be the same...
sounds to me like you prefer the trunk space, back seat , cushy ride and utility... which are the top reasons why people buy an M3 over 911 and lets not start talking bout other cars here... the debate was 997 S vs E92 M3.
we did extensively drive the M3... myself a pcar driver and my friend an E46 ZCP owner and circuit race car driver... we both came to the same conclusions...
I don't care what biased magazines have to say who advertise products for companies they are reviewing
your turbo didn't impress me either... but after watching that video of a PROFESSIONAL Le mans race car driver commenting on all the things the M3 DOESN'T do at the track that the 997s DOES DO... if you still wanna believe your car is better then so be it... I do a lot of tracking many things in that video hit home... looks to me like the M3 is lacking in the track department.... is it WAY better... no... its $25 k less you get $25 K less car... its a linear comparison in my mind where performance is concerned... don't even get me started about what the new 997S will do to an M3... of course when BMW engineers work out the bugs in their DCT transmission we may have another reason to compare and the results will be the same...
sounds to me like you prefer the trunk space, back seat , cushy ride and utility... which are the top reasons why people buy an M3 over 911 and lets not start talking bout other cars here... the debate was 997 S vs E92 M3.
09-07-2008, 05:29 PM
#103
Nordschleife Master
Yup. I agree with you guys. No way we'll change each others minds. However, for those of you who have NOT driven the M3, I recommend checking it out. That means YOU Oreganet!!
Good luck to the OP on his decision. Either way, I don't think you can go wrong. If I were you, I would look at some nice 2002-2003 Carrera's, too. If they're in your ballpark
Good luck to the OP on his decision. Either way, I don't think you can go wrong. If I were you, I would look at some nice 2002-2003 Carrera's, too. If they're in your ballpark
We're not saying that the M3 is not a great car, it is, but it is not a 911 and is nowhere close in handling or responsiveness.
Just listen to how many reviewers (in the videos posted) have commented on the poor steering characteristics and fading brakes. Honestly, they are the last things you want in a sports car and certainly are not present in the 911.
Wake up and get a grip on reality - much as you like to think that all of your car purchases are perfection, the reality doesn't match the consensus of professional reviewers when it comes to this comparison.
These two cars ARE different and people buy them for different reasons.
09-07-2008, 05:37 PM
#104
Drifting
Gant, you just are not listening. In fact if you were paying attention to other threads you would see that the M3 sedan is on my short list of sedans to buy in the next couple of years (a Panamera is the other choice).
We're not saying that the M3 is not a great car, it is, but it is not a 911 and is nowhere close in handling or responsiveness.
Just listen to how many reviewers (in the videos posted) have commented on the poor steering characteristics and fading brakes. Honestly, they are the last things you want in a sports car and certainly are not present in the 911.
Wake up and get a grip on reality - much as you like to think that all of your car purchases are perfection, the reality doesn't match the consensus of professional reviewers when it comes to this comparison.
These two cars ARE different and people buy them for different reasons.
We're not saying that the M3 is not a great car, it is, but it is not a 911 and is nowhere close in handling or responsiveness.
Just listen to how many reviewers (in the videos posted) have commented on the poor steering characteristics and fading brakes. Honestly, they are the last things you want in a sports car and certainly are not present in the 911.
Wake up and get a grip on reality - much as you like to think that all of your car purchases are perfection, the reality doesn't match the consensus of professional reviewers when it comes to this comparison.
These two cars ARE different and people buy them for different reasons.
I'm not saying I couldn't be wrong. I haven't drivn my car on the track. Maybe if I were to get them both on the track back to back I'd change my mind.
All I CAN say is that my car gives me EVERYTHING my C4S did and does it so much more...handling, cornering, cruising is all very similar. Very civilized yet RAW and mean when I get in it. Turbo only had boost and speed over my M, otherwise, when I hit a corner hard in my car, I get all the feedback and plantedness I got in my other 2 911's, yet WAY more forgiving when cruising. That is why I bought it. I think you'll love it, Wellardmac.
I do plan on getting back in a Porsche. Maybe a Cayman....we'll see.
09-07-2008, 05:40 PM
#105
Nordschleife Master
Well, I can only tell you from my experiences and many of the reviews say otherwise. I think we're simply going to have to wait until we see these 2 cars go head to head with pro's.
I'm not saying I couldn't be wrong. I haven't drivn my car on the track. Maybe if I were to get them both on the track back to back I'd change my mind.
All I CAN say is that my car gives me EVERYTHING my C4S did and does it so much more...handling, cornering, cruising is all very similar. Very civilized yet RAW and mean when I get in it. Turbo only had boost and speed over my M, otherwise, when I hit a corner hard in my car, I get all the feedback and plantedness I got in my other 2 911's, yet WAY more forgiving when cruising. That is why I bought it. I think you'll love it, Wellardmac.
I do plan on getting back in a Porsche. Maybe a Cayman....we'll see.
I'm not saying I couldn't be wrong. I haven't drivn my car on the track. Maybe if I were to get them both on the track back to back I'd change my mind.
All I CAN say is that my car gives me EVERYTHING my C4S did and does it so much more...handling, cornering, cruising is all very similar. Very civilized yet RAW and mean when I get in it. Turbo only had boost and speed over my M, otherwise, when I hit a corner hard in my car, I get all the feedback and plantedness I got in my other 2 911's, yet WAY more forgiving when cruising. That is why I bought it. I think you'll love it, Wellardmac.
I do plan on getting back in a Porsche. Maybe a Cayman....we'll see.