Do you have a remanufactured engine?
05-05-2008, 12:25 PM
#197
jury_ca - your doublethink is Orwellian in it's misinformation, denial of truth and manipulation of the facts.
'To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies'
Describes you to a tee.
'To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies'
Describes you to a tee.
How you continue to think that these engines are all brand new but failed first pass QC is beyond me.
05-05-2008, 12:46 PM
#198
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Jury - to continue the speculation, I would be that defective engine cases (there were some early on, porus, misaligned - which caused some RMS problems) are returned to the supplier for credit and perhaps penalty charges. Perhaps all the cases are sent to the casting house for inspection and some of them come back to be reused. I don't know, fact is nobody posting here knows the facts.
In my plant, labor is costly and repair time is often more expensive than replacing with new. This theme was echoed by another above.
All parts subject to wear are likely replaced. Certain parts like air filter housings which do not wear out are perhaps reused. Considering the labor costs to dismantle and then rebuild, I am not sure whether reuse is less costly than simply building with new.
What I like is that should my engine fail, I can get a replacement which carries a factory warranty and be on my way in days as opposed to waiting weeks for a dealer to rebuild. I also believe the factory does a better job of assembling an engine than the vast majority of technicians at a dealers.
I am not sure that this thread is meaningful except in its original intent - which has been hijacked by exercises in logic - Aristotelean methods and a lack of real facts.
Regards,
In my plant, labor is costly and repair time is often more expensive than replacing with new. This theme was echoed by another above.
All parts subject to wear are likely replaced. Certain parts like air filter housings which do not wear out are perhaps reused. Considering the labor costs to dismantle and then rebuild, I am not sure whether reuse is less costly than simply building with new.
What I like is that should my engine fail, I can get a replacement which carries a factory warranty and be on my way in days as opposed to waiting weeks for a dealer to rebuild. I also believe the factory does a better job of assembling an engine than the vast majority of technicians at a dealers.
I am not sure that this thread is meaningful except in its original intent - which has been hijacked by exercises in logic - Aristotelean methods and a lack of real facts.
Regards,
05-05-2008, 12:56 PM
#199
Banned
Thread Starter
The original question is whether a reman engine is better than an original engine. I think everybody agrees that the answer is yes. Even jury agreed to that before taking the discussion to an theoretical exercise of whether a new engine is better than a reman engine manufactured at the same time. The end.
Nothing against you and really to clarify more so than rebuff... If you're referring to this thread, that was not the original question. Read the name of this thread that I created for the original question.
Your boy jury disagreed. Hethen hijacked it with his comparo and statement below and I quote:
Jury said: "Original/NEW Engines > Reman Engines"
Jury hijacked: "The question I would pose is whether you would rather have a brand new engine installed in the car, or an engine that has gone through the reman program?"
To which I've asked him to start a thread, but here we are many pages of posts later that is absolutely full of speculation backed by zero credibility on his part. Let's focus on the marrow of all this: Jury's never looked into the reman program as he has no reason to and I'm assuming he has a life outside of Rennlist (speculative) where he'd rather be driving on his original engine on his super low mileage C4S than dig into this as deeply as possible (someone like cdodkin). Thus, we get his blinders-on question above since it's not based on real life scenario. Would we? Sure. Of course. WTF not? Now, can we? No. Porsche does not offer a new engine through warranty. Can you buy a new engine? Not sure. Even if we could, would an owner spend the extra $ to get a new engine over a reman? Maybe, but that'd be silly. Why? Because a reman engine is just as good if not better than a new engine and this is the point he's NOW arguing since he's switched up >. This is a point he's wasted a lot of time trying to disprove, but it's a losing battle because NO ONE can begin to refute or make it true and the fact that he's working so hard to convince us of this is why this thread has become the comedy that it is. The reman pro party at least has anecdotal evidence of worth since we do have owners who went from an original to reman. Nobody and I mean nobody received a brand new engine from Porsche so anything supporting the new > reman argument... is for nerds to split hairs on.
So to continue to the best of what we have based on real life stories...
Most if not all anecdotal notes and owner stories lead us to believe that reman engines are preferable to an original engine especially if you have the 3.4. We also know that the 3.6s aren't bulletproof either. I know of 3 40th Anniversary engines blowing up from IMS on this very site. I know of one local '04 C4S that blew up with IMS maybe a month ago. Yes, it is a crazy small sampling, but unless we all came on Rennlist due to an engine failure, that's a scary common story we share, is it not? Think about it.
We also know that rarely if ever have any owners who experienced engine failure received a brand new engine from Porsche. This is simply NOT an option we have. Do we fret? Should we? Not in the least because my point has always been and so shall remain even after having read most of jury's vapid posts is that a reman engine is more desireable than the original engine. Many of you agree with me because this statement is founded on real examples of issues/resolutions shared between owner, Porsche dealership, and Porsche.
But this was not what the thread was about...
but oh well, please carry on to those who want to add to the list by responding to the original question of the thread.
05-05-2008, 12:58 PM
#200
Banned
Thread Starter
Thanks, again, for bringing clarity to the thread and to the others who echo Bob's statement above.
It's an if --> then thread. Simple. Let's share some stories. If/then.
05-05-2008, 01:04 PM
#201
-Bob, you're right the labour and OH rates are the most costly aspect, and you'd minimize the labor time on non value-added activities such as inspection/diagnosis/testing.
-How you'd treat and deal with the supplier for the case issue is spot-on from what I've seen.
-If you consider a casted metal part such as the exhaust/intake manifold, you'd reuse this part rather than replace with a brand new part because they aren't subject to damage when the engine fails.
- Every part you can reuse is essentially free. Every new part you use has its own built in labor and conversion cost.
That's the economics behind remanufacturing.
-How you'd treat and deal with the supplier for the case issue is spot-on from what I've seen.
-If you consider a casted metal part such as the exhaust/intake manifold, you'd reuse this part rather than replace with a brand new part because they aren't subject to damage when the engine fails.
- Every part you can reuse is essentially free. Every new part you use has its own built in labor and conversion cost.
That's the economics behind remanufacturing.
05-05-2008, 01:16 PM
#202
Wow Ben, you seem to be in a rather sedate mood today, so I'll just correct one part in your post that is not accurate.
P.S. Cdodkin might be an expert in dealing with Porsche in getting these engines replaced, but that does not make him an expert in the process of how these engines get remanufactured. His perception continues to be that reman engines are all new engines and that is not true.
This is not true. I pointed out a thread where at least one poster has received a brand new engine from Porsche and not a reman unit (because they were out of inventory for reman units as you would expect to happen from time to time due to the fallout ratio).
Another individual that had an aftermarket warranty that had a contract that stated repairs would be made with new parts got away with getting a new engine as well. If you go through the Porsche warranty they are not OBLIGATED to give you a new engine. Do new engines exist? Yes, they have to because there is a % of cores that cannot be re-used. From Porsche's perspective they need to put you in a better position than before (a remanufactured motor vs. your used motor before it failed.) Getting a brand new motor is the ultimate solution but also the most costly.
Does this mean that you can get new engines anytime? No. They will only resort to building a batch of new motors when their reman inventory falls below a certain critical level. If you put an order in at a dealer and you're willing to wait months, my bet is that you will be able to get a brand new M96 engine made.
P.S. Cdodkin might be an expert in dealing with Porsche in getting these engines replaced, but that does not make him an expert in the process of how these engines get remanufactured. His perception continues to be that reman engines are all new engines and that is not true.
Another individual that had an aftermarket warranty that had a contract that stated repairs would be made with new parts got away with getting a new engine as well. If you go through the Porsche warranty they are not OBLIGATED to give you a new engine. Do new engines exist? Yes, they have to because there is a % of cores that cannot be re-used. From Porsche's perspective they need to put you in a better position than before (a remanufactured motor vs. your used motor before it failed.) Getting a brand new motor is the ultimate solution but also the most costly.
Does this mean that you can get new engines anytime? No. They will only resort to building a batch of new motors when their reman inventory falls below a certain critical level. If you put an order in at a dealer and you're willing to wait months, my bet is that you will be able to get a brand new M96 engine made.
05-05-2008, 01:22 PM
#203
Burning Brakes
I have only 2 comments for you guys.....
1) How many 996/986s had their original engine fail.... only PAG knows the exact number!
2) How many cars with "replaced" engines had catastrofic failure?? I haven heard of 1 yet (maybe I am wrong)
Based on that, make your own conclusions....
1) How many 996/986s had their original engine fail.... only PAG knows the exact number!
2) How many cars with "replaced" engines had catastrofic failure?? I haven heard of 1 yet (maybe I am wrong)
Based on that, make your own conclusions....
05-05-2008, 01:32 PM
#204
Instructor
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Galun,
Nothing against you and really to clarify more so than rebuff... If you're referring to this thread, that was not the original question. Read the name of this thread that I created for the original question.
Your boy jury disagreed. Hethen hijacked it with his comparo and statement below and I quote:
Nothing against you and really to clarify more so than rebuff... If you're referring to this thread, that was not the original question. Read the name of this thread that I created for the original question.
Your boy jury disagreed. Hethen hijacked it with his comparo and statement below and I quote:
I do have a reman engine and I posted my own experience earlier in this thread. https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost...1&postcount=60
As someone who has a reman engine, I care about the resale value of my car in the future. In most cases, a car with a non-original engine will hurt resale value. In the 996s, it can be argued that a car with a reman engine should not hurt, or even help, resale value. Buyers do educate themselves on places like rennlist. I think most here will agree that a reman is better than an original engine, and I think that should be the clear message we want when a future buyer searches the rennlist 996 forum.
Jury is not my boy
What jury had started was a theoretical question that would probably never apply in real life. I think the question that he started was not necessarily a bad one to begin with, but I do not agree with his subsequent arguments. Since we have little to no information from Porsche, we have to work off assumptions - and I trust assumptiosn from people who had been through the loop or race teams who work closely with Porsche more than someone who had never been through the loop and implied that they have links to Porsche. But as the old chinese saying goes, it takes two hands to clap (or something like that). Feeding the troll and arguing an irrelevant point will probably confuse the potential future buyer during their research - which I care about. Heck I had been following this thread and even I got confused about the original intent.
05-05-2008, 01:41 PM
#205
Banned
Thread Starter
Ben you are correct. The discussion had gotten to the point where I got confused about the original intent of the thread.
I do have a reman engine and I posted my own experience earlier in this thread. https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost...1&postcount=60
As someone who has a reman engine, I care about the resale value of my car in the future. In most cases, a car with a non-original engine will hurt resale value. In the 996s, it can be argued that a car with a reman engine should not hurt, or even help, resale value. Buyers do educate themselves on places like rennlist. I think most here will agree that a reman is better than an original engine, and I think that should be the clear message we want when a future buyer searches the rennlist 996 forum.
Jury is not my boy What jury had started was a theoretical question that would probably never apply in real life. I think the question that he started was not necessarily a bad one to begin with, but I do not agree with his subsequent arguments. Since we have little to no information from Porsche, we have to work off assumptions - and I trust assumptiosn from people who had been through the loop or race teams who work closely with Porsche more than someone who had never been through the loop and implied that they have links to Porsche.
But as the old chinese saying goes, it takes two hands to clap (or something like that). Feeding the troll and arguing an irrelevant point will probably confuse the potential future buyer during their research - which I care about. Heck I had been following this thread and even I got confused about the original intent.
I do have a reman engine and I posted my own experience earlier in this thread. https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost...1&postcount=60
As someone who has a reman engine, I care about the resale value of my car in the future. In most cases, a car with a non-original engine will hurt resale value. In the 996s, it can be argued that a car with a reman engine should not hurt, or even help, resale value. Buyers do educate themselves on places like rennlist. I think most here will agree that a reman is better than an original engine, and I think that should be the clear message we want when a future buyer searches the rennlist 996 forum.
Jury is not my boy
What jury had started was a theoretical question that would probably never apply in real life. I think the question that he started was not necessarily a bad one to begin with, but I do not agree with his subsequent arguments. Since we have little to no information from Porsche, we have to work off assumptions - and I trust assumptiosn from people who had been through the loop or race teams who work closely with Porsche more than someone who had never been through the loop and implied that they have links to Porsche. But as the old chinese saying goes, it takes two hands to clap (or something like that). Feeding the troll and arguing an irrelevant point will probably confuse the potential future buyer during their research - which I care about. Heck I had been following this thread and even I got confused about the original intent.
-The fact that this thing got hijacked to prove/add absolutely NOTHING is what pisses me off (relatively speaking) as I've asked your not-boy Jury to start a new thread or stfu Oh, well. Life goes on.
-Interesting tidbit is, you guys can thank or tank me for bringing jury's daily post count avg up by magnitudes - all eyez on me.
05-05-2008, 01:41 PM
#206
Banned
Thread Starter
I have only 2 comments for you guys.....
1) How many 996/986s had their original engine fail.... only PAG knows the exact number!
2) How many cars with "replaced" engines had catastrofic failure?? I haven heard of 1 yet (maybe I am wrong)
Based on that, make your own conclusions....
1) How many 996/986s had their original engine fail.... only PAG knows the exact number!
2) How many cars with "replaced" engines had catastrofic failure?? I haven heard of 1 yet (maybe I am wrong)
Based on that, make your own conclusions....
05-05-2008, 01:46 PM
#207
Banned
Thread Starter
Wow Ben, you seem to be in a rather sedate mood today, so I'll just correct one part in your post that is not accurate.
P.S. Cdodkin might be an expert in dealing with Porsche in getting these engines replaced, but that does not make him an expert in the process of how these engines get remanufactured. His perception continues to be that reman engines are all new engines and that is not true.
This is not true. I pointed out a thread where at least one poster has received a brand new engine from Porsche and not a reman unit (because they were out of inventory for reman units as you would expect to happen from time to time due to the fallout ratio).
Another individual that had an aftermarket warranty that had a contract that stated repairs would be made with new parts got away with getting a new engine as well. If you go through the Porsche warranty they are not OBLIGATED to give you a new engine. Do new engines exist? Yes, they have to because there is a % of cores that cannot be re-used. From Porsche's perspective they need to put you in a better position than before (a remanufactured motor vs. your used motor before it failed.) Getting a brand new motor is the ultimate solution but also the most costly.
Does this mean that you can get new engines anytime? No. They will only resort to building a batch of new motors when their reman inventory falls below a certain critical level. If you put an order in at a dealer and you're willing to wait months, my bet is that you will be able to get a brand new M96 engine made.
P.S. Cdodkin might be an expert in dealing with Porsche in getting these engines replaced, but that does not make him an expert in the process of how these engines get remanufactured. His perception continues to be that reman engines are all new engines and that is not true.
This is not true. I pointed out a thread where at least one poster has received a brand new engine from Porsche and not a reman unit (because they were out of inventory for reman units as you would expect to happen from time to time due to the fallout ratio).
Another individual that had an aftermarket warranty that had a contract that stated repairs would be made with new parts got away with getting a new engine as well. If you go through the Porsche warranty they are not OBLIGATED to give you a new engine. Do new engines exist? Yes, they have to because there is a % of cores that cannot be re-used. From Porsche's perspective they need to put you in a better position than before (a remanufactured motor vs. your used motor before it failed.) Getting a brand new motor is the ultimate solution but also the most costly.
Does this mean that you can get new engines anytime? No. They will only resort to building a batch of new motors when their reman inventory falls below a certain critical level. If you put an order in at a dealer and you're willing to wait months, my bet is that you will be able to get a brand new M96 engine made.
Put in an order at the dealer? WHAAHAHAHAHHAHA wait months? Yea. Who? Who's done this and through what special request is this made? More bs.
And you seriously need to drop this new engine is better than reman deal. You know those nice 40th Anniversary cars I was telling you about that experienced IMS kaboom - all 3 of them that I know of? Those engines were built new/original later than my '02/'03 reman engine. Putting any sort of value to this statement I just made is as valid of an act as your updated/edited claim that new/original engines built around the same time period > reman engines built around the same time period.
Whooo wheeeeee oohhhhhhhh
05-05-2008, 01:52 PM
#208
Pro
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Spokane, Wa
Posts: 597
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
-When I first carfaxed my current car, I was like oh **** it's got an engine replacement this sux. Little did I know. I'm very happy that my car has a reman engine now.
-The fact that this thing got hijacked to prove/add absolutely NOTHING is what pisses me off (relatively speaking) as I've asked your not-boy Jury to start a new thread or stfu Oh, well. Life goes on.
-Interesting tidbit is, you guys can thank or tank me for bringing jury's daily post count avg up by magnitudes - all eyez on me.
-The fact that this thing got hijacked to prove/add absolutely NOTHING is what pisses me off (relatively speaking) as I've asked your not-boy Jury to start a new thread or stfu Oh, well. Life goes on.
-Interesting tidbit is, you guys can thank or tank me for bringing jury's daily post count avg up by magnitudes - all eyez on me.
Yeah...thanks
Don't do us any more favors pls
