Got my baby back.
04-18-2008, 09:24 AM
#16
Hey Bruce - who did you have do the work? I just got a set of BBS Classic Sport II's that I need to have refinished. I've dealt with Steve at Collision Networks on the 73 Fuchs - but I'm not going to be as picky with these as they'll be DD summer boots for the girl.
Also interested to see the splitter when you have a sec to post up some shots on your car.
Also interested to see the splitter when you have a sec to post up some shots on your car.
04-18-2008, 09:26 AM
#17
04-18-2008, 10:35 AM
#18
Banned
Unlike a lot of people who hang out on automotive message boards, I... a) Know exactly what throttle response is, and b) Don't have any ego invested in my mods. I would also point out that I said nothing about horsepower or torque gains. Not a word.
Throttle response is a pretty easy thing to reprogram in a drive-by-wire car. In the old days, they'd make a throttle more responsive by putting a little cam in line with the throttle cable. The result is the same either way: The engine responds to proportionally less movement of your right foot. Throttle response is not power. Throttle response is not torque. Throttle response is not acceleration. It's just how much foot movement equals how much throttle opening. It's fun, and for some people, helps with things like smooth heel-and-toe shifting, which I happen to enjoy despite there being no real need for it on my daily commute.
It's not inane at all. Car companies make a conscious decision to program throttle response so that the car feels fast enough, but isn't too twitchy for the mall crawlers. On my Rover, there's even a different map for cruise control because the stock throttle response is deliberately lazy... a twitchy throttle is not what you want off-road. Ever asked someone what BMW's Sport Mode really is? It ain't more power, my friend. It's radically increased throttle response. Throttle response is, in some respects, a 'marketing' decision, made to please most of the people most of the time.
I also never said that I thought it wasn't sharp enough on my Porsche. But, by the same token, I actually prefer it a little jumpier than stock. For me, it's more fun. Like playing my Hardtail Strat versus my archback Guild dreadnaught.
For me - to my taste - throttle response is 'improved' with the REVO flash.
Throttle response is a pretty easy thing to reprogram in a drive-by-wire car. In the old days, they'd make a throttle more responsive by putting a little cam in line with the throttle cable. The result is the same either way: The engine responds to proportionally less movement of your right foot. Throttle response is not power. Throttle response is not torque. Throttle response is not acceleration. It's just how much foot movement equals how much throttle opening. It's fun, and for some people, helps with things like smooth heel-and-toe shifting, which I happen to enjoy despite there being no real need for it on my daily commute.
It's not inane at all. Car companies make a conscious decision to program throttle response so that the car feels fast enough, but isn't too twitchy for the mall crawlers. On my Rover, there's even a different map for cruise control because the stock throttle response is deliberately lazy... a twitchy throttle is not what you want off-road. Ever asked someone what BMW's Sport Mode really is? It ain't more power, my friend. It's radically increased throttle response. Throttle response is, in some respects, a 'marketing' decision, made to please most of the people most of the time.
I also never said that I thought it wasn't sharp enough on my Porsche. But, by the same token, I actually prefer it a little jumpier than stock. For me, it's more fun. Like playing my Hardtail Strat versus my archback Guild dreadnaught.
For me - to my taste - throttle response is 'improved' with the REVO flash.
so you pretty much paid $1K for what my M3 had with the sport button which remapped the throttle position. i always had that button turned off for a reason, though i assume the revo's flash doesn't make it nearly as aggressive.
all i can say is, the giac flash did ever little for the feel of the car and the stock "throttle response" works just fine for many. sharper throttle response doesn't = better in some cases.
04-18-2008, 11:18 AM
#20
Three Wheelin'
I had my car chipped a bit back and I can tell you without a doubt that it runs smoother and fuller across the rev band. I have a 3.4 996 and I had always noticed a bit of a lag/dampening around 3.5k RPM that seems very settled now. The trade-off is that I'm essentially obligated to use 93 octane all the time now. Porsche definitely detunes, electronically, the engine to accomodate crap regular fuel around the country. Again, it harks back to the conversation in the N-rated tires thread whereby we all agreed that Porsche makes some compromises in order to provide enhanced driveability to the widest portion of consumers. Those changes would include quiet, fuel efficiency, emissions, etc. I have no use for any of those.
04-18-2008, 11:46 AM
#21
It does feel like it pulls harder above 4,000 rpm. I remind you that made no hp/torque claim. What the programmers have to play with, basically, is mixture and timing at a given throttle position. The better the program, the more finitely these variables are managed. The stock DME manages these things on the basis of certain assumptions about octane for the safety of the motor. The easiest trick in the DME tuner book is to allow a leaner mixture and advanced timing, which is why these products usually warn you explicitly that you must use premium fuel. My point is, it is entirely possible that these two variables are set more aggressively at that rpm level (which I think is more or less when the variocam does its thing?). If so - just like when I did this stuff with a screwdriver on my '68 Dart - it would absolutely make it feel more energetic.
(To the earlier thread about idiot moves I've made, I'll add the story of my thinking that if a bit leaner mixture and a bit advanced timing is good, then more must be better. I found the dipstick embedded in my lawn like an arrow about 50 feet away after I started the Dart up. That was when I learned what 'blow by' is.
)My friend, you need a new cause. All this energy you put into preaching against these products would be better directed toward finding WMDs or a cure for the common cold. These products do something. They don't make the car 'better', but they make it different. And as I said in my first post, the cost is a personal thing.
04-18-2008, 11:50 AM
#22
996 505 986 00
Happy hunting!
04-18-2008, 12:03 PM
#23
Racer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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Bruce - I gotta say that in my personal and professional experience - engaging people like this guy, only encourages them. Kinda like my 3 year old when he yells. Ignore the attention grabbing behaviour and it will eventually stop.
Anyway, I digress. How much did you end up paying to have your wheels refinished at Engineered? I was just quoted $200 a rim to machine and paint my BBS Sport Classic II's from a referred supplier.
Anyway, I digress. How much did you end up paying to have your wheels refinished at Engineered? I was just quoted $200 a rim to machine and paint my BBS Sport Classic II's from a referred supplier.
04-18-2008, 12:09 PM
#24
Bruce - I gotta say that in my personal and professional experience - engaging people like this guy, only encourages them. Kinda like my 3 year old when he yells. Ignore the attention grabbing behaviour and it will eventually stop.
Anyway, I digress. How much did you end up paying to have your wheels refinished at Engineered? I was just quoted $200 a rim to machine and paint my BBS Sport Classic II's from a referred supplier.
Anyway, I digress. How much did you end up paying to have your wheels refinished at Engineered? I was just quoted $200 a rim to machine and paint my BBS Sport Classic II's from a referred supplier.
My twists were refinished for about $900, which included tire unmounting/mounting and the rest of that stuff, done and out the door. I'm never going to claim that Engineered is cheap, but their work is absolutely flawless, always. The fact that they'll pick up and deliver the car doesn't hurt either.
04-18-2008, 12:30 PM
#25
Banned
Bit harsh, accusing me of changing my story. If you knew me, you'd know that among my many faults is not a lack of integrity.
It does feel like it pulls harder above 4,000 rpm. I remind you that made no hp/torque claim. What the programmers have to play with, basically, is mixture and timing at a given throttle position. The better the program, the more finitely these variables are managed. The stock DME manages these things on the basis of certain assumptions about octane for the safety of the motor. The easiest trick in the DME tuner book is to allow a leaner mixture and advanced timing, which is why these products usually warn you explicitly that you must use premium fuel. My point is, it is entirely possible that these two variables are set more aggressively at that rpm level (which I think is more or less when the variocam does its thing?). If so - just like when I did this stuff with a screwdriver on my '68 Dart - it would absolutely make it feel more energetic.
(To the earlier thread about idiot moves I've made, I'll add the story of my thinking that if a bit leaner mixture and a bit advanced timing is good, then more must be better. I found the dipstick embedded in my lawn like an arrow about 50 feet away after I started the Dart up. That was when I learned what 'blow by' is.)
My friend, you need a new cause. All this energy you put into preaching against these products would be better directed toward finding WMDs or a cure for the common cold. These products do something. They don't make the car 'better', but they make it different. And as I said in my first post, the cost is a personal thing.
It does feel like it pulls harder above 4,000 rpm. I remind you that made no hp/torque claim. What the programmers have to play with, basically, is mixture and timing at a given throttle position. The better the program, the more finitely these variables are managed. The stock DME manages these things on the basis of certain assumptions about octane for the safety of the motor. The easiest trick in the DME tuner book is to allow a leaner mixture and advanced timing, which is why these products usually warn you explicitly that you must use premium fuel. My point is, it is entirely possible that these two variables are set more aggressively at that rpm level (which I think is more or less when the variocam does its thing?). If so - just like when I did this stuff with a screwdriver on my '68 Dart - it would absolutely make it feel more energetic.
(To the earlier thread about idiot moves I've made, I'll add the story of my thinking that if a bit leaner mixture and a bit advanced timing is good, then more must be better. I found the dipstick embedded in my lawn like an arrow about 50 feet away after I started the Dart up. That was when I learned what 'blow by' is.
)My friend, you need a new cause. All this energy you put into preaching against these products would be better directed toward finding WMDs or a cure for the common cold. These products do something. They don't make the car 'better', but they make it different. And as I said in my first post, the cost is a personal thing.
Vase, vase, above 4K RPM hp/tq gain same deal, man. This isn't a legal review. People read that and think cool some power (hp/tq) gains.
I value your friendship and input so you taking it beyond that is all you. We all tend to huddle up around our purchasing decision and justify it and that's fine. The thing is, we'll never come to a data-backed, scientific conclusion that flashing our M96 engines does wonders other than anecodtal remarks that have more to do with **** feel than actual "dude now I'm pulling on the stock M96" youtube vids. Ok, so we go back to throttle response... again, hard to measure and it's this minutiae level of difficulty in seeing measurable, salient results that gets me back to... I wouldn't spend $1000-1500 on flashing the M96.
I agree, it is a personal decision. Not a performance decision. Again, if I was all about huddling around my own campfire, I'd be like yea flashing rocks! since I have the GIAC flash on my C4S.
04-18-2008, 12:31 PM
#26
Banned
In my personal and professional experience, those that can't handle candor tend to waste a lot of time and end up with broken hearts v. getting things done.
04-18-2008, 12:44 PM
#27
Bruce
Thanks very much for your assistance. When considering modifications, I ask myself "Will it make me happier?". If yes, I then compare the expense against the cost of freight/PDI/document processing charge for a new 997....modification always wins.
Who installed this for you? Although it looks easy, I'd probably install it upside down........
Enjoy the beautiful day
Ian
Thanks very much for your assistance. When considering modifications, I ask myself "Will it make me happier?". If yes, I then compare the expense against the cost of freight/PDI/document processing charge for a new 997....modification always wins.
Who installed this for you? Although it looks easy, I'd probably install it upside down........
Enjoy the beautiful day
Ian
04-18-2008, 12:47 PM
#28
Ben, if you can't appreciate it, it's not worth the money. No disagreement. I've had the same debates with people over single malt scotch.
But don't impugn my credibility to comment on this. I didn't change a word of my original post. Besides which, I'm not a starry eyed kid. I'm 50 years old (in a few weeks, anyway). I've owned 24 cars, I've raced, I've wrenched a little, I've worked in the car business, got to drive prototypes on closed test tracks and listen to engineers explain their decisions about the cars they market. Moreover, I care little enough about the money that I'd reverse the flash if I wasn't happy about it. My point in barfing up my resume for you here is this: I have a little bit of cred and absolutely nothing to prove or defend so, to me, my opinion is worth something. You're absolutely free not to share it, and I'd defend your right to. But that doesn't include suggesting I'm easily impressed or that I'm shucking and jiving.
Peace out. Before the flash posse dogpiles on your ***.
But don't impugn my credibility to comment on this. I didn't change a word of my original post. Besides which, I'm not a starry eyed kid. I'm 50 years old (in a few weeks, anyway). I've owned 24 cars, I've raced, I've wrenched a little, I've worked in the car business, got to drive prototypes on closed test tracks and listen to engineers explain their decisions about the cars they market. Moreover, I care little enough about the money that I'd reverse the flash if I wasn't happy about it. My point in barfing up my resume for you here is this: I have a little bit of cred and absolutely nothing to prove or defend so, to me, my opinion is worth something. You're absolutely free not to share it, and I'd defend your right to. But that doesn't include suggesting I'm easily impressed or that I'm shucking and jiving.
Peace out. Before the flash posse dogpiles on your ***.
04-18-2008, 12:49 PM
#29
Bruce
Thanks very much for your assistance. When considering modifications, I ask myself "Will it make me happier?". If yes, I then compare the expense against the cost of freight/PDI/document processing charge for a new 997....modification always wins.
Who installed this for you? Although it looks easy, I'd probably install it upside down........
Enjoy the beautiful day
Ian
Thanks very much for your assistance. When considering modifications, I ask myself "Will it make me happier?". If yes, I then compare the expense against the cost of freight/PDI/document processing charge for a new 997....modification always wins.
Who installed this for you? Although it looks easy, I'd probably install it upside down........
Enjoy the beautiful day
Ian
I'm sure the install is easy. I had mine done by my indy while they were servicing some other stuff. Company is called Engineered Automotive, up in Concord. They're very fussy, and don't tend to screw things up like I do.
04-18-2008, 12:56 PM
#30
Banned
Ben, if you can't appreciate it, it's not worth the money. No disagreement. I've had the same debates with people over single malt scotch.
But don't impugn my credibility to comment on this. I didn't change a word of my original post. Besides which, I'm not a starry eyed kid. I'm 50 years old (in a few weeks, anyway). I've owned 24 cars, I've raced, I've wrenched a little, I've worked in the car business, got to drive prototypes on closed test tracks and listen to engineers explain their decisions about the cars they market. Moreover, I care little enough about the money that I'd reverse the flash if I wasn't happy about it. My point in barfing up my resume for you here is this: I have a little bit of cred and absolutely nothing to prove or defend so, to me, my opinion is worth something. You're absolutely free not to share it, and I'd defend your right to. But that doesn't include suggesting I'm easily impressed or that I'm shucking and jiving.
Peace out. Before the flash posse dogpiles on your ***.
But don't impugn my credibility to comment on this. I didn't change a word of my original post. Besides which, I'm not a starry eyed kid. I'm 50 years old (in a few weeks, anyway). I've owned 24 cars, I've raced, I've wrenched a little, I've worked in the car business, got to drive prototypes on closed test tracks and listen to engineers explain their decisions about the cars they market. Moreover, I care little enough about the money that I'd reverse the flash if I wasn't happy about it. My point in barfing up my resume for you here is this: I have a little bit of cred and absolutely nothing to prove or defend so, to me, my opinion is worth something. You're absolutely free not to share it, and I'd defend your right to. But that doesn't include suggesting I'm easily impressed or that I'm shucking and jiving.
Peace out. Before the flash posse dogpiles on your ***.
And thanks for the resume. I knew this already, thus me not putting you off as an idiot and just not responding, period, since this is the gentler, kinder Ben.
Enjoy the REVO flash in good health, my man. Half a century. Fantastic.