10 GT3

Chad,

I would strongly recommend you just run better fluid and stock pads. The reason for this is you are running street rubber. It doesn't matter if you go to a wider tire as your contact patch surface area won't actually increase unless you lower your tire pressures. Going to a wider tire changes the contact to make it wider and shorter. This helps a little in the corners, but it actually hurts you under braking. It is very hard to get the benefits out of a full race pad like a PF01 if you don't have the grip to use them. PS2s are a long way from a rear race tire like MPSCs, Corsas or R888s. Save your money and wait until you start running race rubber to upgrade your pads.

Also remember that your previous M3 has single piston floating calipers with solid rotors on all 4 corners. This is not exactly the best setup for hot lapping. The 996 has far better brakes: 4 piston fixed monoblock calipers with cross-drilled rotors on all 4 corners. These cars don't get get brake fade early like you would in a C5 Corvette or an M3.

Chads996

I really wish you guys would read my post.

Thank you for the input. You are assuming my track prepped M3 had stock brakes. It did not. It had a full set of Stoptechs. FWIW - while stock BMW E36/E46 M3 brakes are indeed floating calipers, they are NOT solid rotors.

With about 7 years of track driving under my belt...while I can always learn more, I have a fair bit of knowledge on the subject.

Back to the 996. I usually run in Group 4 (black). I simply want a more aggressive set of track pads to get me through a couple weekends while I test and tune the car's handling setup. Better fluid is a no-brainer, and if I stay with the stock pads, I would likely burn through them in 3 sessions.

Thanks...C.

hwk72

+1 that's exactly the point! Braking with stock pads is not bad but you burn them through in no time on the track. My last set of stock pads did last for <6 hours driving on the track.

chris walrod

You'll get more than 3 sessions out of a stock (textar, I presume) set of pads. Since you are on street tires (for now), stay with the factory pads, new ones. I think you'll be impressed with them.

If you are dead-set on a more track oriented pad, go with the PFC 97 or 01 pad.

LVDell

Chris, with all due respect, that is poor advice. To rec'd the street pad and at the same time a pad that will NOT come close to working properly (PFC01) with PS2's is not good. The stock pads are NOT made to be an endurance pad for tracking. The PFC01 needs more heat than he can probably get in them. The Pagid RS19 is a good endurance pad that works well with PS2's. I know for a fact as I have run ALL the pads (stock, PFC's, Pagids) with various tire combos from S02's and PS2's to NT01's, R6's and Slicks and have done that in both a CAB and the GT3.

10 GT3

Sorry Chad,

I used the wrong word. When I mentioned the M3 brakes are "solid", that is they are just "vented". No cross-drilling or slotting. Since you went to Stoptechs on yours, I know you are more than familiar with the issue.

Dell is right on some of his remarks. The stock pads are not endurance pads. Neither are PS2s track tires. A typical race tire is 2 seconds faster per minute on a track than the best street tire. Keep in mind that unless you are driving on an extremely grippy surface, it is hard to get over the stock pads capabilities on street tires. I have run 4 different pads on streets tires (PSs, S03s and RE050As) and race tires (MPSCs, Corsas and R888s): stock, Porsche Sport (same as a Pagid Black Sport), Pagid Orange and now PF01s.

Race pads never work well with street tires. As Dell mentioned, they are extremely hard to keep enough heat in. What I notice is with the Oranges and PF01s is that I hit the ABS a lot under braking due to the lack of grip on street tires. I am sure you noticed from running PF01s on the M3, these pads are noisy and laggy cold then quiet and gripper when heated up. On street tires I can't keep them up to temp. After a long straight, they start squeeling on the next corner. I can never achieve the benefits from a full race pad on street tires. You can't get enough friction to heat them up enough because the friction between the tires and the surface is not enough to generate the high brake friction.

I don't notice a significant difference between Sport or street pads on street tires. Both pads seem to do well and I don't get major fade with either on street tires. I also don't experience anywhere near the wear level other are stating from track use. I just have to start braking significantly earlier when running street tires.

With MPSCs and Corsas race tires, Sport pads are a minimum. I will fade my brakes with street pads within 5-6 laps into the first session on MPSCs or Corsas. If the tires grip, stock pads will never keep up. The R888s bite a lot harder in the braking zones (they were specifically designed this way) than the MPSCs or Corsas. I litterly burn Sport pads up running R888s. I can fade them and boil RFB600 fluid in half a session. The last set I had I went half the pad surface in 6 sessions and melted the backing plates off the rears. Again switching back to street tires, no issues at all. With Sport pads I get a fraction the wear on street tires as I do on race tires. With the R888s I now run PF01s with RBF660, which to date is a good combination working consistantly. You need your brakes to match the capabilities of the rest of the car and tires are a significant part of that capability.

I will hold to my prevous comment. Run street pads until you invest in race tires.

karlooz

i ran PFC01s on my stoptechs on the street and track. very easy to modulate on the street with good cold bite and actually did not squeal. good pad but i went back to pagid RS19 (yellow) i feel they have better bite than the pfcs and actually think that the pfc 01s were quite mellow and not as aggressive as the pagids. at any rate i am back on the rs19s but my next set will be rs29. warning, yellows squeal like a pig on the street.

i echo what ray said about the oranges. they tend to leave pad deposits on the rotor giving you a juddering effect.

LVDell

Carlos, seat of the pants and actual friction levels/operating temp are tywo different ballgames. The RS19/29 pads have a much lower friction level than the PFC01and more importantly a LOWER operating range. The 19 isn't even in the same ballpark as the PFC01. If you get heat in the 01's you will know what instantly that there is a HUGE difference between the Pagid and the PFC.

FYI....the 19/29 operating range (optimal) is 400-700F while the PFC01's is 860-1000F!

I can brake DEEPER and HARDER with the 01's than the Pagid 19's could even dream of.

If you want a pad similar to the PFC01 in terms of friction and operating temp you need to look into the RS14 (black) or 15 (grey).

karlooz

FYI, if you look at the friction graph, the optimum range for the rs19s is between 750~1100F (the degrees F and degrees C are transposed.... just do a celsius to fahrenheit conversion and you'll see.) since the chart was slightly off, i will let that one slide . the yellows actually have a wider optimal operating range than the PFC01 range you have stated.

this PAGE describes the rs19 better. "Constant temperatures up to 600°C (1,100°F) are possible"

i just don't get the same performance you get from the pfc01. trust me i get heat in them especially in 100+ degree weather. they didn't fade but the bite just isn't as good as the rs19s.

btw, i can't seem to find any data on PFC's crappy site... no test data. anyhow usable temp range does not equate to a higher coefficient of friction and i "feel" the yellows have a higher cF. with no side to side test data we can only go by "feel".

oh BTW, if you go with the greys then you can go as high as 1300!!!!

LVDell

Damn metric system! I was trying the whole slide of hand thing

Seriously though......the RS19 is BELOW the friction level of the 14 and 15 as well as the 01's. I did a fair bit of research on this (that's the professor in me) before I made my choice to go with the 01's. Talking to a VERY expereinced engineer with countless sanctioning bodies and top teams (Grand Am, IMSA, NASCRAP, etc, etc, etc) I was able to make an informed decision.

Yes with the RS19 you can "get" to 1000F and be ok but the optimal range well below that. ~750 is where it peaks for optimal performance. You already know about the 14/15 and PFC01.

So while my metric to standard trick didn't do very well, the story remains unchanged.

As far as friction and temp, the 19's are at the bottom of the 14/15/01 choices.

My question would be WHY you don't "get" the same performance from the PFC01's that I (and others) get. And yes, I agree, the PFC website blows.

karlooz

Actually, looking at the graph, friction peaks at 750 and plateaus until around 1000 where friction drops off so it has a wider range of optimum friction.

Unless you can insert the friction characteristics of the 01s into the same friction graph, I remain unconvinced that the pfcs have a higher cF. This is based on own observations and unless I see some data my observations outweigh anything else. I am still not sure where you came up with the conclusion that the 19s have inferior friction characteristics without any hard data... Is this just by "feel"?

Looking at the PFC lineup, the 01s are third in the cF and torque category. PFC has the 03 and 05 which are higher on the rung. So the rs19 and the pfc01s are third on the rung so they've got to be the same right?

LVDell

Nice logic. I commented in your other thread. Like I said, I am glad you like the RS19 as braking is all about confidence at this point and if you FEEL more confident that the RS19 does better for you than the PFC01, then great. I'm done with this one. **unsubscribe**

karlooz

i guess you missed the winky. acutualy i was following your logic when you said the yellows are third in the pagid lineup.. but wait the 01s are also third in the lineup. man you gotta lighten up.

karlooz

chad, i apologize for being a part of this going off into another dell vs. world pissing match. let me make this simple. IMHO and in my the PFC01s are better for the street and for street tires. they are much quieter than pagids and i find it's bite and torque characteristics are less aggressive than the pagids making them easier to modulate and you won't be hard on the ABS all the time. i drove on the street for quite a while on the PFC01s on the street and tracked them FWIW. i may try them again, maybe i got a bad batch. next time i will do side by side qualitative testing on track.

Chads996

I have many track miles on PFC 01's. And I have limited time spent on Pagids. I will not be using 01's. The setup on the car is not there yet. After I get my track wheels/tires, then we'll talk.

Thanks for all the input folks...

Chad