jkarp

Hi, My name is Josh and I'm looking at buying a 911 (02+). I'm looking at both C2's and C4S's. I know it's hard to explain the way a car drives in writing, but if anyone with experience in both cars can attempt this, that would be great. Anything else that I should be aware of between these 2 models would be appreciated as well. Thanks and I look forward to joining the family!

...josh

P.S. if you guys know of anyone in the Bay Area that's interested in a 2000 M5 (with pretty high miles), please feel free to ask any questions.

Riad

Josh,

The C4S is wider and heavier and so it feels that way... it's very planted. Because of the AWD on the C4S it also has standard PSM (Porsche Stability Management - or Oh **** Switch) this is an option on C2 cars, something to think about.

The C2 should feel more nimble - at least it did for me. If the only difference between the C2 and the C4S were the AWD system I would question "why even get an AWD car if you live in the Bay Area?" however the 996 C4S has much more going for it.

It came standard with the turbo brakes, suspension and wide body (minus the turbo inlets and fixed wing), plus it came full leather and the awesome looking wrap around rear deflector.

Good luck with your search.

Rob

PJorgen

I live in the Bay Area and have an '02 C4S. I've been an Audi driver for years and wanted to stay with AWD. I also track the car 10-15x per year, so the S package was a requirement.

I agree with Rob, if you were considering a C2 vs C4, I'd ask why you wanted AWD. The bigger brakes and stiffer suspension on the S make a huge difference if you like that kinda thing.

jkarp

thanks guys. I too will track the car quite a bit with Unlimited Laps. I tracked my M3's quite often, but after getting rid of those for the M5, I didn't have a good track car.

I also had an A4 that I loved, especially at the track.

The widebody look and the upgraded suspension and brakes really make the C4S attractive to me.

As far as the PSM on the C4S, I'm assuming that can be disabled, correct?

thanks again guys and keep the input coming!

...josh

TD in DC

Oh no . . . here we go again.

IMHO, the "S" package is definitely not a "requirement" for the track. In fact, if you are planning to track the car that much, I would strongly suggest that you consider the C2, because it should, to most people, feel more nimble. You do not "need" the components of the "S" package and, to the extent they are unnecessary, all they do is add weight.

PSM can never be completely disabled. Even if you turn it off, it will come back on automatically IF you hit the brakes AND if you exceed a predetermined level of slip angle (7 degrees IIRC). This remains true on all cars equipped with PSM, whether AWD or not.

The bottom line is that they are both very nice cars that are extremely capable on the street and at the track. Drive them both, and buy the particular car you like best.

jumper5836

I disagree, the bigger brakes, wider rear wheels and better suspension are great for the track.

TD in DC

Do they result in a lower track time?

The brakes are not deficient on the C2s. As such, having bigger brakes merely adds weight, which is exactly the opposite of what you want. I mean, why bother with ceramics if unsprung weight is irrelevant?

What about weight to power ratios? I don't have it for 996, but the difference between the 997 S at 9.24 and the 997 C4S is 9.58. It all matters.

Stock suspension on both the C2 and the C4S blows for the track. As such, picking the lesser of two unacceptable solutions really isn't much of an advantage. Once you go aftermarket, there are tons of options for a C2 that are equal to or better than those available for the C4S.

I know of guys who race 996 C2s. I don't know anyone who races a 996 C4S. Why is that if they are so superior?

PJorgen

Agreed, S may not be a requirement for the track. I made that assumption becasue I needed to upgrade the brakes and suspension on my Audi A4. Might not have needed to do that with a C2.

As for PSM coming back on, that's news to me. I realize that ABS is always on, but I've spun my C4S on the track with PSM turned off, and it didn't come back on. At least the "PSM OFF" light was still on after the spin. I assume in the spin I exceeded most, if not all, slip angles.

TD in DC

The PSM "off" light may stay illuminated . . .but PSM will definitely kick back in if you trigger th algorithm.

You can spin wtih PSM on, particularly if you hit the brakes after you are already starting to spin. So, in other words, you have PSM off, you start to spin, then you hit the brakes, PSM engages automatically, but you do not notice because it was too late anyway.

The main time when you might notice it is if you are aggressively trailbraking. It is annoying because PSM will kick in even though you were "in control" of the car.

jumper5836

Yes it did. Copied from an other thread on the same subject.

Nurburgring times

"....here is a compilation of times someone here got off the web. I do not make any claims on it's veracity or accuracy, and the usual disclaimer as to driver, driver intent, weather conditions, yada, yada, yada. I'm just supplying it add some meat to the discussion, or add fuel to the fire.

7:06 --- BMW M3 GTR, 24hrs, test session, Jörg Müller (2003)
7:19 --- Radical SR3 Turbo (2003),
7:20* -- Opel Astra DTM V8 Coupe, set-up for 24hrs race (sport auto 2003) *estimated
7:25 --- Alzen Motorsport Porsche 996 Turbo, 24hrs race, Uwe Alzen
7:28 --- Porsche Carrera GT, Walther Röhrl, Autobild July 2004
7:32.5 - Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 EVO, Wolfgang Kaufmann (2001)
7:36 --- Porsche Carrera GT, factory test driver Walther Röhrl (2002)
7:40 --- Mercedes McLaren SLR, Klaus Ludwig, Autobild July 2004
7:42 --- Radical 1500 SR3 (2002)
7:43 --- TechArt GT Street (2001)
7:43.5 - Lamborghini Murcielago (Autocar magazine, 2002)
7:44 --- Pagani Zonda C12S (2003)
7:45 --- Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 (2000)
7:46 --- Porsche 996 GT2
7:46 --- SHK Porsche 993 GT2, 652 PS (1999)
7:47 --- Porsche 996 GT3 RS, 381PS (996) (2004)
7:49 --- Porsche 996 GT3 Cup
7:50 --- BMW E46 M3 CSL (2003)
7:50 --- Blitz Supra, 750 PS, Herbert Schürg (1997)
7:50 --- Honda RC30, Helmut Daehne (1993)
7:50 --- Lamborghini Murcielago (2002)
7:52 --- Gemballa Porsche 911 Le Mans (1995)
7:52 --- Lamborghini Gallardo (2003)
7:52 --- Mercedes SLR McLaren (2004)
7:54 --- Porsche GT3 (996) (2003)
7:55 --- Caterham R500 Superlight (2002)
7:56 --- Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale (2004)
7:56 --- Porsche 996 Turbo
7:59 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Performance Chassis) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:02 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Sport PASM setting) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:03 --- Porsche 996 GT3 (1999)
8:04 --- Lamborghini Diablo GT
8:05 --- Ferrari 575M Maranello
8:05 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Normal PASM setting)(Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:06 --- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG
8:06 --- Caterham 7 Superlight R, Robert Nearn
8:07 --- Ferrari 550 Maranello
8:09 --- Honda NSX-R
8:09 --- Ferrari 360 Modena
8:09 --- Lamborghini Diablo SV (no ABS?)
8:10 --- Chrysler Viper GTS, 411PS, UK-Spec, no ABS
8:10 --- Donkervoort D8 180R
8:12 --- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG
8:12 --- Porsche 993 Turbo
8:13 --- Lotus Esprit Sport 350, 354 PS
8:14 --- Porsche 996 C4S
8:15 --- Porsche 911 Carrera 2 (997) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
8:16 --- AC-Schnitzer E36 M3 CLS II, 350 PS
8:17 --- Aston Martin Vanquish
8:17 --- Porsche 996 C2
8:18 --- BMW Z8, 400 PS (2002)
8:18 --- Chevrolet Corvette Z05 Commemorative Edition, 344 PS (2003)
8:18 --- Ferrari F355
8:20 --- Audi RS6
8:22 --- BMW E46 M3
8:22 --- BMW M Coupe, 321 PS
8:23 --- Aston Martin DB7 GT
8:23 --- Porsche 996 Carrera 4
8:25 --- Audi RS4 375 HP"

TD in DC

Oh for God's sake. Respond to the point I made in the post rather than trotting that out, which doesn't really say anything. Afterall, was the C2 99-01?

Also, if you were right, why don't they make the GT3 and GT2 variants AWD?

Jim B . .. oh Jim B . . .

As I said before, none of this probably makes any difference to any of us on this board. Buy the one YOU like. But just don't try to say that the C4S is better, or worse yet, a necessity, for the track. It just isn't. Period.

michael.s.under

I drove both before I bought my C2 and being in AZ (no local curvature) and not doing to much track driving decided on the lower priced C2. Good Luck!

jumper5836

I was responding to your post putting down the "S goodies" as only adding weight. It really does more then just that.

It may have well been a 99 C2 but the 997 C2 is still below it, so I would be hard to believe the 3.6 C2 would be better then the 997 C2.

My point is that, yes it does make a difference at the track. Is it necessity? No of course not. With some dollars the C2 and C4 can be upgraded to the same level as the stock c4s or even better, its just the stock C4S is a nice setup for the track right out of the box with out having to upgrade it.

TD in DC

That is just so wrong! In the hands of an experienced driver, stock, straight out of the box, I would bet you that around most tracks here in the states, a C2 will turn a faster time than a C4S . . . period.

Stop trying to act like the C4S enjoys a significant advantage for track performance. It just doesn't.

You never responded to my points. If you were right about the AWD platform, then why doesn't the GT3 or GT2 have it? If it were so much superior for the track for the non GT variations, then why not also for the GT variations?

How many track days do you have? Honestly and do not exagerate.

Again, though, this is like arguing about angels on the head of a pin. In stock form, most of us here will not be affected too much either way with C2 or C4S.

jumper5836

Again I don't agree, depends on the track and conditions. AWD drive is much easier to drive. C2 requires more smothness where AWD can correct for times when you arn't smooth. You also don't drive AWD the same as a C2, you get on the throtle sooner while corning which I have used many times to catch up to C2s because of that advantage. I don't even have to mention the grip you have in the wet, it's just amazing and quite honestly the track days I have been in during the wet none of the C2s kept pace, some did try but once they felt the *** start to slide the slowed right down. Coming out of a corner I could hit the gas like an idiot see the PSM light come on and watch as I pulled hard on the C2 is my mirror. I mean really hard like a Turbo does to a NA.

GT3 and GT2 classes don't allow AWD. Period. It is an unfair advantage for a few reasons not that I can remeber them but I believe that tire wear was one of them.

I honestly have not that many track days. I started last June. I have 18 days to date with another 8 days planned from today to Sept.
I started in Green and was moved up the second day to yellow and would have skipped yellow all together had I known how to heel and toe. After learning heel and toe I moved up to white on Day 7 where I still remain.


I agree arguing the same thing over and over again is pointless. I didn't buy a C4S for the track. I bought it for a daily driver, including winter, for the widebody, red reflector, front bumber, rear bumper and for the saftly and peace of mind AWD bring to the table. Tracking it is a bonus.