Driver's Ed Crash
07-08-2007 | 04:13 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,482
Likes: 3
From: Oakley, California
Originally Posted by RamVA
This depends on the state and the company. Call to ask.
In many cases you will be covered, but it is not unlikely that your insurance company will drop you after you file a claim.
In many cases you will be covered, but it is not unlikely that your insurance company will drop you after you file a claim.
I have been invited to watch the PCA Golden Gate club race at Thunderhill on 8/4 and 8/5, again watch the races (this is my first time watching PCA). I have been told that at the end of the day Porsche owners can do a drive around the circuit I think with a passenger that is an instructor, but not sure, but I am thinking it probably would be the case. So I will not be racing.
So with that scenario, how would you pose the question to S.F.?
Now reading other posts I am sure that PCA would not do this drive around without enforcing rules and having instructors in cars for novices such as myself, so that the incident that occured with nmercier does not happen.
07-08-2007 | 05:09 PM
#17
Ironman 140.6
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From: North Carolina
Many if not most street policies now have language in them that absolves them from any on track liability (including DE).
I think your best avenue is to appeal to the BMW driver for some repair costs since the incident was clearly his fault.
I'm going to link this thread to the competition forum for their input.
I think your best avenue is to appeal to the BMW driver for some repair costs since the incident was clearly his fault.
I'm going to link this thread to the competition forum for their input.
07-08-2007 | 05:20 PM
#18
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Bummer. Glad to hear none of the drivers was hurt.
Bottom line: If you cannot afford to throw your car away, you should not be on the track.
If you knew that BMW events were not well run, why did you sign up for it? If you figured it out during the event, why did you continue to run?
When you signed the waiver at the door, did you read it? It essentially says, "I know what I'm doing is dangerous, perhaps stupid, and I'm going to do it anyway."
Stuff happens, and nice cars get wrecked all the time. Deal with it.
Bottom line: If you cannot afford to throw your car away, you should not be on the track.
If you knew that BMW events were not well run, why did you sign up for it? If you figured it out during the event, why did you continue to run?
When you signed the waiver at the door, did you read it? It essentially says, "I know what I'm doing is dangerous, perhaps stupid, and I'm going to do it anyway."
Stuff happens, and nice cars get wrecked all the time. Deal with it.
07-08-2007 | 05:32 PM
#19
Addict
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From: MN
931guru is dead on. If you can't emotionally and financially walk away from your car there is no way you should put it on the track. If bad luck happens, whether it be a mechanical problem or body damage, you should have the means to take care of it yourself. This talk about going after the BMW club or the other driver is a clear path to the death of DE.
07-08-2007 | 05:55 PM
#20
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,606
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From: Valencia, Spain
Originally Posted by Ray S
I'm going to link this thread to the competition forum for their input.
Last edited by Gary R.; 07-08-2007 at 06:35 PM.
07-08-2007 | 06:09 PM
#21
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 9,170
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From: New Jersey
Originally Posted by Gary R.
Driving on a race track at speed is inherently dangerous and no one should drive a car that they can't afford to walk away from. Anything can (and does) happen out there and you are responsible for any damages to your car regardless of how they got there.
To blame the organizers of the event for having cars in a position that this could happen is just plain stupid or those who post that have participated in VERY different DEs than I am accustomed to in the Northeast. Having run in many different PCA regions' and sanctioning bodies DEs I can tell you that cars come close enough all the time where if one driver makes a mistake or has a mechanical issue there is a risk of car to car. The fact that it doesn't happen more frequently is what is amazing.
07-08-2007 | 06:13 PM
#22
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 6,688
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From: About to pass you...
Originally Posted by 968iniraq
First, I'd be real suprised if the normal state farm policy would cover such an incident. Two people I know had their state farm insurance signifcantly modified when the company found out they tracked their cars. A clause was specifically written that negated the insurance if the car was at any sanctioned event (SCCA, PCA, BMW...) regardless of competition.
Second, after being an instructor for 6 years, our region safety teams have never allowed cars to get close enough to have something like this happen in a run group without clear parameters. I beleive the BMW club should be held partially responsible for allowing an unsafe condition.
Third, this guy's reasoning for following so close is bunk. You can follow someone's line from hundreds of feet back. Why was he trying late brake if he was 'following your line?' Why? becuse he was trying to catch you, got tunnel vison and forgot what he was doing. The guy in the M3 was not being safe and should be severly counseled if he ever has the nads to return.
Run groups that are allowed to run close enough to make contact should be clearly discussed in the driver's meetings. The drivers of those groups should clearly understand what the ROEs are. Those groups, at least where we are, know each other very well and know each other's capabilities.
BOTTOM LINE: A well run DE should not have cars hitting each other. That is the fault of the organizers and corner workers. That's the whole idea of DE's vs. racing. The risks are known by everyone.
And, by the way, forcing everyone to have insurance for these things becomes VERY problematic. PCA has looked at this and has decided not to pursue it.
FLAME if you want but we have had over 15 years of non-accident DEs in our region and it's a testiment to the members of our safety teams and organizers.
Second, after being an instructor for 6 years, our region safety teams have never allowed cars to get close enough to have something like this happen in a run group without clear parameters. I beleive the BMW club should be held partially responsible for allowing an unsafe condition.
Third, this guy's reasoning for following so close is bunk. You can follow someone's line from hundreds of feet back. Why was he trying late brake if he was 'following your line?' Why? becuse he was trying to catch you, got tunnel vison and forgot what he was doing. The guy in the M3 was not being safe and should be severly counseled if he ever has the nads to return.
Run groups that are allowed to run close enough to make contact should be clearly discussed in the driver's meetings. The drivers of those groups should clearly understand what the ROEs are. Those groups, at least where we are, know each other very well and know each other's capabilities.
BOTTOM LINE: A well run DE should not have cars hitting each other. That is the fault of the organizers and corner workers. That's the whole idea of DE's vs. racing. The risks are known by everyone.
And, by the way, forcing everyone to have insurance for these things becomes VERY problematic. PCA has looked at this and has decided not to pursue it.
FLAME if you want but we have had over 15 years of non-accident DEs in our region and it's a testiment to the members of our safety teams and organizers.
07-08-2007 | 06:18 PM
#25
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 189
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From: Arlington, VA
Originally Posted by JimB
931guru is dead on. If you can't emotionally and financially walk away from your car there is no way you should put it on the track. If bad luck happens, whether it be a mechanical problem or body damage, you should have the means to take care of it yourself. This talk about going after the BMW club or the other driver is a clear path to the death of DE.
Don't even think about going after BMWCCA. You are going to ruin it for the rest of us.
I am worried about the car being damaged at a DE, whether the fault is another person's or my own. That's why I carry track insurance to cover myself.
Edit: I realize the original poster did not suggest going after the organizer. So I am only responding to a later post that brought this up.
07-08-2007 | 06:48 PM
#26
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,050
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From: Malvern, Pa.
Originally Posted by dave1200
If its a Real DE with intructors... your car is coverd with your insurance..
Im with State Farm, and I call ed then not 2 weeks ago to be sure. The officla anser i got was as long as its in the US, and its not an official competive event, your car is covered.
Im with State Farm, and I call ed then not 2 weeks ago to be sure. The officla anser i got was as long as its in the US, and its not an official competive event, your car is covered.
Get a copy of your policy from State Farm and read it. I think they were one of the last companies to add this exclusion, and I'd put little faith into "they told me on the phone it was covered!" because you'll likely find yourself high and dry!
As always on the Internet, be careful making decisions on what you read that may or may not apply to you!
07-08-2007 | 06:53 PM
#27
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,350
Likes: 2
Sucks that you got hit, really.
The rest of this post is not directed at the original poster, but rather to some of the commenters.
Everyone that attends a DE signs a waiver. The waiver says, basically, that you have no right to sue the organizers or other attendees.
What does this mean to you?
If you cannot afford to fix your own car if it is wrecked through no fault of your own, you have ZERO business doing a DE or going racing.
Would it be nice if a bonehead paid for his mistake? Of course. Is the bonehead expected to pay for the mistake? HELL NO. Everyone who has done DEs or racing knows how it goes. You bring your toy. You pay for it even if someone else breaks it.
Really, that is the way it has to be. In this way, you can manage your own risk level. If you can't afford too much? Drive a cheap car. If you want to drive a $500,000 car on the track, you had better have the wherewithall to replace it if jonny boner in his cheap car hits you. If it were not like that, only the rich boys could play because everybody, even if you were driving a cheap car, would have to be ready, willing and able to pay for the most expensive car on the track at the time.
With respect to insurance, I am unaware of liability insurance for DEs and or racing. You can cover your own car . . . but nobody will cover anybody else's car.
Forget the talk about suing anyone at the track. Unless someone was trying to kill you because you banged his wife last night, talk of lawsuits is entirely out of place IMHO.
EDIT: Wow. I had not read everyone else's posts. Sorry to pile on. They are right. Nice if the dude pays. He has ZERO obligation to pay. Be careful with street insurance. I would NEVER play that game.
The rest of this post is not directed at the original poster, but rather to some of the commenters.
Everyone that attends a DE signs a waiver. The waiver says, basically, that you have no right to sue the organizers or other attendees.
What does this mean to you?
If you cannot afford to fix your own car if it is wrecked through no fault of your own, you have ZERO business doing a DE or going racing.
Would it be nice if a bonehead paid for his mistake? Of course. Is the bonehead expected to pay for the mistake? HELL NO. Everyone who has done DEs or racing knows how it goes. You bring your toy. You pay for it even if someone else breaks it.
Really, that is the way it has to be. In this way, you can manage your own risk level. If you can't afford too much? Drive a cheap car. If you want to drive a $500,000 car on the track, you had better have the wherewithall to replace it if jonny boner in his cheap car hits you. If it were not like that, only the rich boys could play because everybody, even if you were driving a cheap car, would have to be ready, willing and able to pay for the most expensive car on the track at the time.
With respect to insurance, I am unaware of liability insurance for DEs and or racing. You can cover your own car . . . but nobody will cover anybody else's car.
Forget the talk about suing anyone at the track. Unless someone was trying to kill you because you banged his wife last night, talk of lawsuits is entirely out of place IMHO.
EDIT: Wow. I had not read everyone else's posts. Sorry to pile on. They are right. Nice if the dude pays. He has ZERO obligation to pay. Be careful with street insurance. I would NEVER play that game.
07-08-2007 | 06:55 PM
#28
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,050
Likes: 0
From: Malvern, Pa.
Originally Posted by nmercier853
IAs for the BMW DE Events, it is very disorganized and the groupings are very poorly setup. The speed differentials are huge because if it has wheels the BMW club will let it run and if you tell them that you can drive they will let you run in any group you want.
07-08-2007 | 06:57 PM
#29
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 257
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From: New York, USA
I think there is a lot of confusion about liability on race tracks. I've asked lawyers about this and they say the whole think is cloudy. For example a guy I know was at a MetroNY PCA event and he drove off the track with no problem until the guy behind him kept going and followed my aquaintance off track and then barrled into himr. Guess what though, this acqaintance put a claim into his insurance company, the company repaired his car and went after the other guy, all just the same as if it had happened on the street. But maybe this isn't the norm and for sure insurance companies are starting to specifically exclude anything on a race track. Actually the car damage could pale in comparison to a liability claim.
As stated by a few in this thread we all need to be mindful of what we are doing. Best of luck repairing your car. I hope it's not too serious and that you can continue to enjoy DE.
As stated by a few in this thread we all need to be mindful of what we are doing. Best of luck repairing your car. I hope it's not too serious and that you can continue to enjoy DE.
07-08-2007 | 06:57 PM
#30
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,225
Likes: 28
From: Tobacco Road, NC
This is very simple and I am sure I am going to probably say what has already been said 20 different ways.
Simple in that you assume risk for anything no matter the situation that happens to your car. Now, Had I been the M3 driver knowing that I was trying to "hang" to see the line and caused the damage to your car I would be right there in the paddock trying to figure a way to work this out checkbook in hand.
Now had this been a case of a driver losing his brakes, picking up debris, or running over fluids and as a result lose control then it just falls into the no-fault "incident" category and each is responsible for his own.
He owes you a rear skirt at a minimum. Nice thing is paint will be a couple hundred and the part could be had for a few hundred with patience on eBay so if he doesn't step up and do the "gentlemenly" thing you probably aren't that much out of pocket. Whatever you do, DO NOT report this to your insurance carrier. It will cost you in increases from reporting a track incident than it will to just pay for the repair.
Simple in that you assume risk for anything no matter the situation that happens to your car. Now, Had I been the M3 driver knowing that I was trying to "hang" to see the line and caused the damage to your car I would be right there in the paddock trying to figure a way to work this out checkbook in hand.
Now had this been a case of a driver losing his brakes, picking up debris, or running over fluids and as a result lose control then it just falls into the no-fault "incident" category and each is responsible for his own.
He owes you a rear skirt at a minimum. Nice thing is paint will be a couple hundred and the part could be had for a few hundred with patience on eBay so if he doesn't step up and do the "gentlemenly" thing you probably aren't that much out of pocket. Whatever you do, DO NOT report this to your insurance carrier. It will cost you in increases from reporting a track incident than it will to just pay for the repair.