smithk993

I have owned 6 P-cars over the last 20 years (most recently a 95 993) and only recently moved to a 91 NSX. While I do like a lot about the NSX, I began to feel the pull to own another Porsche a couple of months ago. With the budget I've set, I had decided it was finally time to move out of the air-cooled era and give the 996 a try. So I started my research using this board as I've done in the past.

I must admit I'm very concerned about the many discussions about engine failures, and comments like most of the 99-01's have probably had a engine swap, while other's say it's a 5-10% failure. Then I hear the 3.6L have cured the problems and then along comes the thread "broken Porsche, broken heart" which shows up on the new engine!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

What are the true costs of an engine swap with remanufactured engine? Has anyone had recent experience? Did Porsche help/subsidize the cost for older vehicles? Was this only if purchased from a Porsche dealer?

I had decided the 996 was my next vehicle, but now.... I'm not so sure.

Keith

joes c4 cab

Here we go again. There are many opinions about this topic, but let me tell you about MY rebuild experience.

My car had 53,000 miles and the cylinder #1 cracked and the engine needed replacing. The car was 6 years old.

I personally spent around $8K for a (non-Porsche) rebuilt engine and swap. The dealer was looking at around $11K plus $1000-3000 pad for ups and extras. Things that **MAY** need replacing once they are in there like the clutch.

Replacement from the dealer carries a 2 year warranty, but I was planning on selling the car when this happened, so I decided I did not need/want the warranty. I am sure I would have got most of that money back when I sold the car, but by then I did not want the car, I was disgusted with PCNA, and just wanted it to be over. Also, I was worried that I might have to spend another $8-11K in two years since, as you pointed out, they have not corrected the problems with the motors. And most of all, I do not feel that ANY car should need a new motor at this mileage unless I was racing and missed a shift, over rev'd, or let it run out of oil.

Others who have not had to replace their motors will tell you how "cheap" $11K is for a rebuilt Porsche motor, and this may be true historically. However, when you buy a car for $43K, and sell it a year later for $33K after having put $8,000 into a rebuilt motor, I assure you it does not feel cheap.

So I guess you really have to decide. I have a buddy who has a 2002 and now that we are starting to see some failures with the newer models, he is scared to keep his past the CPO warranty. He is looking at an extended warranty for about $2500 to cover him once the CPO ends.

From my favorite marquis, that is sad - sad that I have no confidence in any model except the GT or turbo lines. And that is what I recommend you and anyone else who asks for my OPINION buys, a Turbo or GT.

Flame away.

Tippy

2000 - 92k miles, same motor

Sharptt

Although the incidence of IMS is low, it should be zero and unfortunately it is not. The two best options in order are either find a 2005 997 or a CPO 996 as new as possible. In the long run, I think you'd be happier with a 997 C2 for not much more money and it would probably wind up costing you the same or less considering resale. The S models are great but the "plain Jane" 997 is virtually the identical car for a lot less money and they depreciate faster. If you're buying new it would be silly not to opt for the S package, but for a used bargain the '05 997 C2 is tough to beat. Just my $.20 (adjustments made for inflation and gas prices).

justinmm2

Keith,

You have a valid concern, though I think your numbers are a little inflated. Part of the problem, though, is that your guess is as good as mine, in that department. I speak as someone who had oil/coolant intermix on his '00.

When Porsche replaced my engine (under CPO, thank god), I was content in feeling that my replacement motor would tick until the end of time. Why? It's built to higher standards than the originals, and I felt the odds of something like that occuring again were very, very small, and I just got unlucky. While thinking about my reply to this thread, something occured to me, though, that I'm going to post in another thread. Keep your eyes peeled

That said, I think that if you can afford to replace the motor if it ever blows, don't hesitate for a second. The 996 is a wonderful car, and the only reason I regret buying mine was because it led me to sell my E24. It is a modern car, and does not feel like an air-cooled 911. But it is still a great car. If you can't afford a motor replacement, you *probably* should still go for it. Catastrophic problems can happen on any car, including the 964 and 993. As others have or will remark, 911 engine rebuilds for older models can be far more expensive. Personally, I feel your friend with the CPO is fretting for no reason, especially with a 3.6. You just have to decide if you're willing to accept that smidge of risk.

CPO can be a wonderful thing.

Justin

AndrewWK

A 3.4 996 factory replacement motor with full 2 year unlimited mileage warranty costs $6500 from the factory. I don't know how many hours an install takes. I'm not sure about pricing on the 3.6 model. My 99 engine was replaced by PCNA at 50,222 miles under warranty in '02. "Coolant leaking out of left rear of vehicle. Engine Hydrolocked." She's been running like a champ ever since.

Andrew

cdodkin

Actually, it's gone from $8k to $12k, and some dealers are now charging $15k

I was speaking to Loren @ 911 Design about this very point the other month.

He was lamenting the uplift in his base cost for a remanufactured engine unit so we got into a discussion about the M96 issues and costs.

In his words 'the honeymoon period is over, Porsche are looking to charge a real-world price for these units and stop subsidizing them'.

jasper

I bought my 2002 996 with both eyes wide open. It's a cherry car, with a nice moderate 40K miles, a new clutch, a couple of RMS under it's belt, and exactly one year of CPO left. If the engine fails under CPO great, if it doesn't well I guess I have to buy a reman from Porsche don't I?

I did *all* the research (much of it here) and believed then and now that the incidence of failure on the 3.6 litre cars is only a bit better than the incidence of failure on the 3.4 litre cars. One month after I bought it, GNR996, whom I work with, grenades the 3.6 in his 2003. hhhmmm.

While considering a local 3.4 litre car with 90K miles on it I spoke to a senior certified Porsche shop man about engine life. He didn't (couldn't) come right out and say it, but it sounded like he had replaced more 3.4 litre motors than not over the previous 6 years. IMS failures topped the list. He did say the 3.6 litre cars were failing less frequently, but a 100% improvement from one per day to one per every other day is still pretty bad (numbers made up to make my point). There's lot's of guys on this board ready to deny that M96 engine failures are common, but out of all the people at my workplace with 996's 50% of them have had engine failures.

BUT - I bought the 3.6 anyway remember. Why you ask? Because what the hell am I going to daily drive otherwise? My 911 was good as a weekend car only, the 993 cars are actually too nice to daily drive (and too expensive), the 964 would be an option, but frankly I don't like the looks. Forget front engined Porsches (nice but not for me), I'd rather drown in vomit than take a ride in a Cayenne, so what's left? BMW ? Audi ? Uughh.

So I'm loving my 996 (really) and plan to drive it every day for the next 10 years at which point it will have 200K miles on it, and then I'll be the one bragging on this board how all I did was change the oil and put gas in it every once in a while. Trouble free motoring, that's my plan!

Paul Marangoni

2000 Coupé, 102,000 miles, original motor, original clutch (but new water pump and new vacuum reservoir)

GNR996

Thanks Jasper, can count on you for a laugh......
Afraid though I am so soured on the experience it will be an Audi for me. S4 perhaps. The fun of owning a Porsche goes beyond just the car itself. If this is the way I can expect to be treated ( like a nobody, and I am ) in the future, frankly expected better after lusting after pcars for all these years, I will find something else to keep me entertained. Clearly there will be further heart ache down the road, is shown by all the niggling troubles people seem to have with these cars.

As soon as the car is returned to me it will be sold. I am sad of course that Porsche has let me down but live and learn. From the wait to the rental of a car it's all been bad. Porsche should be ashamed, very ashamed.
And, yes I to went into this with my eyes wide open, but thought, wrongly it turns out if the worst happened it would be taken care of in a professional manner.

So any local looking for a '03 C2 black/black PSM, Bose, sport seats, xeons and 18inch Carrara wheels keep watching here. The dream of owning a pcar for me has ended, will find another lust worthy vehicle...

Happy motoring folks.

Geoff

rountreed

Wow 102,000 miles with original clutch!

carpundit

That was a joke, right?

I have trouble detecting sarcasm sometimes, so I'm asking.

rountreed

My guess would be yes or he is around a bunch of unlucky people. Seems like the engine failure is around a high of 10% give or take down to something much lower. If I was to bet my money taking out all the initial engine changes for RMS issues because of the incorrect tool I would bet it is in the 5% +/- 2% category but that is purely subjective as are the facts most of the people throw around here. I am sorry for the unlucky people but I think this is WAY overrated on this site. IMHO

GNR996

Yes, Jasper was joking... the two of us work together and both drive 996's.
Mine broke, so the 50% line.
Have not been happy with the way the failure has been handled by both the local p dealer or pcna hence the rant about selling my car.

ruckmjr

99 996. 63K miles. Original everything, regular maintenance only. Runs like a champ!