gota911

Oh oh, Dell, looks like there could be a SECOND GT3 in your future!

LVDell

Not a chance.

MJBird993

I've been doing DE since 1992 and this is always a problem - different clubs have different rules and there is always that debate about 3 pt versus 4 pt versus 5/6 pt. As an instructor, I've had to get into some cars with very questionable restraint systems, and that is one of the main reasons that I do not do in-car instruction any more.

An "SCCA approved" rollbar is a little misleading, because SCCA has specific requirements for safety cage construction and installation. You can have a cage/rollbar that is made of sufficiently strong steel to pass SCCA requirements, but if it is installed incorrectly, then it can fail.

It's funny... I remember doing tech inspections (for a Solo II program) on cars, and one guy refused to let us drill an inspection hole in his bar. He was probably one of those ****-retentive Porsche owners (j/k). I explained to him that we could not determine the thickness of the metal unless we made a small hole to insert the micrometer, but he just wouldn't budge. And so he didn't race.

I applaud all of you who do DE events and learn to be better drivers and get to enjoy your car on the track. PLEASE do not take your very expensive car out on track and be a cheap-*** on safety equipment, OK? I've been stuffed into the wall three times now, once driving and twice instructing. You can buy a new car, but you can't buy a new head. There is no substitute for a well designed and installed rollcage (or at minimum, a rollbar with integral belt mounts) and a proper 5 point harness. These days too, a HANS device is strongly encouraged and you really should, if it all possible, disconnect all of your airbags as well. An airbag is redundant with a harness and if you do wreck, you will save thousands by not having to replace all those things. BTDT.

Michael

Red141

A buddy is an instructor with ACNA and he has the Tequipment bar on his 996-cab.

jasonfreed

AC 996C2 - Interesting. I spoke a local race shop who told me the Tequipment bar was NOT SCCA approved.

I have no doubt the bar from Porsche would be safe, but, the Audi Club requires I show proof of SCCA approval. If he's instructing for the Audi Club and they let him use it, I'd bet the people doing tech don't know.

The bottom line is, after speaking with the event organizer at the Audi event when my S4 broke and I was hoping to go home and pick up the 996, it is an insurance issue. The Audi Club doesn't pay for insurance for cabs without roll bars. There are not enough cabs showing up to justify the extra expense. There are lots of TT owners upset about it. The Porsche Club apparently feels the roll over protection from the factory is enough and/or they pay for the insurance at trac days for cabs.

The Audi Club is different.

As I said before, I have no complaints about the different rules. I just don't want to buy a roll bar, pay for track pads, register for an event, show up and get turned away. It's fairly confusing trying to figure out what to buy that will work everywhere.

MJBird993 -

I agree safety is the most important thing at these DE. The Audi Club requires equal protection for both driver and passenger. If you put harnesses in your car, there must be one for driver and passenger. From what I can tell about the 996 bolt in roll bars, there is really no way to install them wrong. The prices are similar between the DAS and the Tequipment bar. If one comes with a piece of paper (however meaningless it may be) that says it's SCCA approved and one does not, I need to buy the one with the piece of paper stating SCCA approval or I will not be allowed to participate in the event.

LVDell

I find it odd that ACNA defaults to SCCA for what they deem approved for a rollbar. Why wouldn't ACNA have an approved list? PCA has their list and each track has theirs and you ALWAYS default to the higher safety requirement (club or track).

LVDell

Michael, insurance companies call this a pattern. Not good my friend.

jasonfreed

LVDell - I agree it's odd. I have no clue how the decision was made. I'd bet the club was told by the insurance company what minimum was needed to insure the event for the least $$$ (ie: best bang for the buck).

I've seen some "questionable" cars on the track as far as safety goes. As you said, they always default to the higher safety requirement. I think (not sure but almost sure) that the ACNA has higher safety requirements than the tracks (at least at the events I've been to).

What would an example be of a time where the track required something more than a club? Just curious, I have no experience outside of the ACNA.

LVDell

Example would be VIR. We have a PCA safety list that approves the popups and rollbars in the 996CAB and the 986 but the track VIR requires all open top cars (even with the hardtop installed) to have a rollbar installed. However, CMP does NOT require the rollbar so you can run there. We had to buy a rollbar for my wife's CAB before we could run VIR.

jasonfreed

Ah, I see.

It appears the ACNA is more stringent than the tracks I go to.

I've been told if I do Porsche Club DE at the same tracks, I'd be fine with my pop up protection.

It's just more fun for me to do ACNA events since I know the people.

Looks like I'm buying a roll bar....now which one is the question?

Anything worth looking at other than the DAS and the Tequipment (which I need to check on again to see if it would be OK with the ACNA)?

Thanks for the info.

LVDell

I looked into both. I chose the Teq bar because I liked the look of it and becasue I prefer to buy OEM pieces for the car. There was ZERO modification done to install the Teq bar and IIRC correctly there is some drilling involved with one of the DAS bars. If it is permanent then no biggie but I didn't intend on keeping it in the car for very long since we moved to a GT3 with a roll bar.

MikeRosen

I've talked to the several of the ACNA officers and their insurance agent about their safety requirements. Unless something changed in the last year, the PCA and ACNA actually use the same insurance company. The rule differences don't come from the insurer but from the club. The insurer offers suggestions, but the rules come from the club. The PCA has decided that it wants to allow cabs, maybe because it sells so many. ACNA has decided that the risk in cabs is too high without a cage. Why ACNA has not instituted its own cage requirements I could only speculate. I can tell you that it puts on far less events than the PCA or even BMW clubs. In addition, ACNA is much smaller than the PCA. It may simply be that ACNA has not deployed the manpower/resources to investigate and create its own list of approved cages.

LVDell

Good point Mike.

jasonfreed

Good to know Mike.

The event organizers of the ACNA events I've done tell the participants that the roll cage issue is an inusrance issue NOT a club issue. They have told me it costs too much to include cabs in the covered group and it would increase the cost for everyone. Just saying what they told me.

I wonder if there could be different types of insurance from the same insurer? ie: the PCA can buy one plan for a 2 day DE that will not exclude cabs (lots of Boxters and 996s I'd guess) and the ACNA excludes cabs for a slightly reduced price. Certainly any isurance company can carve out a particular group for a rate change?

I don't know - it's sort of a moot point since the rules are in place. I just want to track the 996 once this year instead of my pig S4. Tossing a 3700lb family sedan into a corner is fun but I'd like to try it in the Porsche.

MJBird993

What are you trying to say, Dell? Are you saying, that somehow it's my fault?

Huh?

Look, I'm just driving down the track, minding my own damn business, and the wall chose to jump out in front of me. That's all. And I wasn't - burp - drinking.

No, really, I wasn't.

Anyway Jason, I hear ya - I remember years ago I registered for a BMW school at Mid-Ohio but sold my Porsche before I went, so I brought my Z06. Fortunately it was a hardtop, as the standard Corvette is a targa. Apparently that group does not permit targas, so if I had driven my earlier (C4) Corvette, I would have been SOL and one mightily pissed-off person after driving 10 hours for nothing.

So, I'm all about being prepared and getting the correct equipment for the school. And in the future, the requirements are only going to get more strict, not less. Not with people buying things like M3s and Corvettes and Porsches with 300, 400 horsepower out of the box. Damn scary.

Ask me again why I don't instruct.

Anyway, good luck, and have fun!

And Dell, when we finally get to meet in person, I'll take you for a ride and demonstrate how those accidents couldn't possibly have been my fault. We can use the GT3, right?

Michael